New Diplomatic Victory

[DirtyMartini]

Just lost in a bizarre way --

Playing as Sumeria. Mansa builds Apostolic Palace for judaism. For the entire game, he's about the only one who has that religion in his cities, and the Palace leadership is never any issue for me at all. I'm cruising toward victory -- domination or spaceship and I'm in the process of building the United Nations. I aquire Judaism in a conquered Mongol city. Elections come up a few times for Apostolic Palace after I obtain the religion -- I abstain, I have very few votes anyway. Mansa wins easily every time. Eventually, a vote comes up, he wins the vote, and the "Mansa wins a diplomatic victory" screen comes up. What's up with that?

I can post a save I guess, but is that apostolic palace supposed to work like that? Did he cross some sort of population threshold for Judaism which made that work or what?

PE

[DirtyMartini]

Never mind -- I figured it out. Didn't know that was possible.

That still seems bizarre. Mansa and Hatshepsut had Judaism in all their cities. Brennus, Mao, and I had it in very, very few. So Mansa and Hatshepsut each had like 140 some votes, while each of the rest of us had less than 20 each. However, Brennus and I had the bulk of the worlds population (probably >65% between the two of us). So, Mansa needed only one friend to win the game, and that friend was my vassal and had shared my state religion the entire game.

Are the mechanics of this victory posted anywhere? How many total votes are required to enable that victory. It seems to me, you could just build a huge population and make an effort NOT to spread your religion, then just vote yourself a victory.

Seems a little cheesy -- I didn't even acquire judaism until about 20 turns before the game ended, so I didn't have time to spread it around and give myself more votes. I guess if I'd known that victory was possible (which I'll admit was my own fault). I could have declared war on Mansa and knocked down his population -- he just wasn't a military or spaceship threat and was on his own continent, so I hadn't bothered.

Interesting anyway. Turned a cruising victory into an early loss (1890 or something).

[onodera]

I liked how you could defy the diplomatic victory in SMAC. Of course it was you against the New World Order afterwards, but it still beat losing immediately.

[Palpster]

alternatively if you have just one city with the AP's religion, just give that city away. He won't be able to win, because every civ needs to have at least once city with the religiong for him to be able to cause a victory vote.

[greenday_234]

I heard you could defy in BTS. Not true?

[Saurus]

Originally posted by greenday_234
I heard you could defy in BTS. Not true?

You can defy any other resolution but not those were a leader is beeing elected (either for controlling the AP or winning a religious victory)
In theese cases you can abstain but not defy.

[Saurus]

Originally posted by Palpster
alternatively if you have just one city with the AP's religion, just give that city away. He won't be able to win, because every civ needs to have at least once city with the religiong for him to be able to cause a victory vote.

This actually might be something of an issue needing to be slightly balanced in a patch as the AP-victory possibility seems to depend heavily on the world setting.

When civs are divided by oceans, AP-victory seems almost impossible to achieve to begin with.

Playing on a pangea on the other hand, realigions spread easily and with little effort and it will become almost unavoidable that a religion will have at least 1 city "infected "in all foreign nations. (if this do not happen for some reason, send out a missionary)

[Palpster]

On pangaea all borders will also be closer, sparking tensions and therefore a Diplomatic Victory through AP is less common, except for the human player who takes enough cities and vassals to win of course....I'll try to build it on Pangaea maps, hardly ever on maps with multiple continents.

[Saurus]

Originally posted by Palpster
On pangaea all borders will also be closer, sparking tensions and therefore a Diplomatic Victory through AP is less common, except for the human player who takes enough cities and vassals to win of course....I'll try to build it on Pangaea maps, hardly ever on maps with multiple continents.

I have not (yet) really tried to win AP-victories but this is what I think would be an interesting way to win early and easily:



1) Discover Theology - found Christianity

2) While building AP, spread Christianity to all of your own cities.

3) Christianity has probably already spread to a few other civs, but most probably not too heavily, witch is good. Use missionairies to spread Christianity to those civs not having it present anywere before completing AP.
(this is easy in BTS since A.I accepts open borders almost exclusively now even when annoyed)

Now you shoud be in a position were you have Christianity in ALL of your cities, and all A.I have it but only in 1 city each. This overall situation is actually not difficult at all to get on a pangea-map.

Voting now should provide an easy and cheesy victory AFAIK.

[Kataphraktoi]

Voting now should provide an easy and cheesy victory AFAIK.

Ive been wondering when this would become an issue
I noticed that AP sillyness in one of my games. i could obtain victory with no effort and despite having credible opposition in the AI ranks

[Risa]

Impossible.

That "strategy" requires every other already had state religion (else they would adept Christrianity as their state religion and spread it among their cities), no one prefers theocracy or is at an extented war, and no one is on "free religion" mind. I think this kind of situation happens even less than popping three resources in mines in three rounds...

[DirtyMartini]

1) If done early enough, free religion wouldn't be available

2) What does free religion have to do with anything anyway. Do you mean that it makes it desirable for the
AI to spread religion?

3) On a pangea it's pretty likely that by the time christianity is founded buddism or hinduism would have spread widely enough that each civ would have a state religion already.

[Risa]

Yes, some AIs just like to spread any and every religion they have. I call this a "free religion" mind. It does not necessarily have anything to do with actual free religion.

[Arrian]

Wow. So far, the AP has been a total non-factor in my games.

-Arrian

[Risa]

Originally posted by Arrian
Wow. So far, the AP has been a total non-factor in my games.

-Arrian

Then you missed the most powerful wonder in BtS.

400 hammers for a religious UN early on is powerful enough, but that is not the point. What makes AP overpowered is its "hidden" bonus, that every state religion's building produces two hammers per turn. Assuming player have six cities by the time AP is built (the minimal number on standard map even for builder), that is a total of 24 hammers per turn, or a meresy 17-turn long duration of return of investment. Considering these hammers are spent in production rich city and are gained in possibly production poor cities (GP pump, cottage spam, or fishing village), they worth more than number suggested.

What's more, AP doesn't has competitors in production priority list at all. By the time you get Theocracy, REX is over, or almost over. Early wonders (Henge/GWall/Oracle/GLighthouse) are done, too, with possible exception of Pyramids. Hanging Garden, GLibrary and MoM are in the future yet, if you go a more or less Theocracy beeline. Even axe rush should be over now. Sword / sword+cat campaign is the only competitor.

In all, AP is a wonder too powerful, available too early, with a price too low. That production bonus should really be removed, or if not, move AP to Divine Power and raise its cost to 1000 hammers.