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  • Reimagining Colonies

    I quite like the whole Colony concept in BtS. In our history new "civilisations" have sprung up when liberated from their motherland. While the Colony mechanic captures the end result of this I don't think it captures the driving forces behind Colonies getting freed in the real world. The game models the driving force as one of cost - it costs more maintenance to hold onto these Colonies and so it becomes too costly for the motherland to hang onto them. I think the opposite was generally true in our history, Colonies were very profitable and so the motherland fought to hang onto them. The force driving independence was grass roots support by citizen's of these Colonies that they should be independent. The end result was often violent uprising but not always (my own country was made independent through an act of British parliment).

    The sort of thing I wouldn't mind seeing is if Colonies developed an independence movement over time. This could either be something that just happens or a result of a random event. The random event would be kind of like the Slave uprising event when you run slavery, if you have something that qualifies as a colony there might be a spark of uprising. I think a combination of the 2 would be best, with the event giving a big bump to the independence sentiment.

    This independence movement could then manifest itself like foreign culture in a city. If you get enough "independence culture" in your city then it would behave a bit like conquered cities do and ask to be made independent. You could, of course, refuse. I'm not sure of how the uprising mechanics would work but building off the culture idea, giving it a chance to culture flip to a brand new civ based on the normal culture flip rules. I think there possibly needs to be something like in Civ 2 where you could have an armed uprising appear out of no where and these units would seek to liberate the cities desiring independence. Civ's gaining independence in this way would be automatically at war with their parent civ and start off with a negative relationship modifier. I think this gives incentives to grant colonies independence before they get nasty but it also gives a military solution for those who want to hang onto their colonies.

    If there is enough people interested in this idea I might go all out and try to make a mod.

    Comments?

  • #2
    I think when you create a colony in Civ you create a dependent overseas territory. Only when you mistreat them does the colony become an independent nation.
    So if I'm Spain and I create a colony, I get New Spain, not Mexico.
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    • #3
      You could have citizens becoming unhappy. Instead of "we want to join our motherland" it could be because of "we want our independance".

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      • #4
        I think that, properly done, that could be a very successful mod...
        <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
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        • #5
          I agree. That would be a very successfull mod.

          I think the idea about the colony creating a new "foreign" culture is the way to go. Now you just need to think about how to create that culture. Maybe it could be related to the maintenance calculations. The more it costs to maintain the city, the more foreign culture it creates. And it could be also boosted by random events.
          "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
          "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by ColdPhoenix
            You could have citizens becoming unhappy. Instead of "we want to join our motherland" it could be because of "we want our independance".
            Indeed, I was thinking that we be a good thing to include as well.

            Originally posted by OliverFA

            I think the idea about the colony creating a new "foreign" culture is the way to go. Now you just need to think about how to create that culture. Maybe it could be related to the maintenance calculations. The more it costs to maintain the city, the more foreign culture it creates. And it could be also boosted by random events.
            I was thinking of removing the actual "colony maintenance" part of the maintenance calcs but I was thinking of the same sort of idea as you where the more maintenance it would have had under the current system the more culture and dissent it would generate.

            I guess the ultimate expression of this idea would include conquered civs so that they have a chance to overthrow their conquerers even after they parent civ has been destroyed. The big question would be how to balance this so that it doesn't remove the fun of rampaging over your neighbours.

            Anyway it sounds like their could be some interest, time to download the SDK

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Vaugula
              Indeed, I was thinking that we be a good thing to include as well.

              I was thinking of removing the actual "colony maintenance" part of the maintenance calcs but I was thinking of the same sort of idea as you where the more maintenance it would have had under the current system the more culture and dissent it would generate.
              Hi Vaugula, maybe I didn't explain myself properly. I was talking about the whole maintenance cost calculations. The reasoning behind this is that even if not stated explicitly, a part of the maintenance cost represents corruption due to the inhability of the central government to hold the city. Cities which are very far have higher maintenance costs, and being so far some of the citizens may start feeling part of a different culture, even if they are in the same continent and the same cultural bubble. Also, settling a forbidden palace reduces the maintenance, but also reduces independence movements.

              The key is finding a value that makes independece movements something possible while not being too likely and thus killing player fun. I suppose that's something to be reached through playtesting.



              Originally posted by Vaugula I guess the ultimate expression of this idea would include conquered civs so that they have a chance to overthrow their conquerers even after they parent civ has been destroyed. The big question would be how to balance this so that it doesn't remove the fun of rampaging over your neighbours.
              It could, but I feel that it would be easier (at least at the first stages of the design) to have just your culture and your "rebel culture". Otherwise if you divide the rebel culture among different ones non of them could be strong enough to become independent. Plus you have the trouble of deciding which city creates which specific culture.

              Originally posted by Vaugula Anyway it sounds like their could be some interest, time to download the SDK
              Good luck! Please keep us posted on your progresses :-)
              "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
              "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

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              • #8
                That many rebel cultures would prevent a specific one to actually trigger some sort of revolt would be just fine - "devide and conquer" - the revolt should trigger when any of the rebel cultures gets close to surpass the motherland´s in that specific city.

                While You are at it - please check if You can tie this rise of rebel culture (and colony maintainance cost) to cultural blob connection rather than continents, as discussed in another thread. This way, a canadian argentina would could as a colony, too, as right now it wouldnt, since they are both on the same continent - while a japansese corea does count for colony mantainance, just because they are devided by a few tiles of water...

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                • #9
                  (BTW: I read Marx, and i think i pretty much understood him, still i wouldnt be insulted being called a communist - while on the other hand i find it hard to believe that Ronald Reagan ever read Marx (or would have admited having done so, if asked directly in an interview)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by OliverFA

                    Hi Vaugula, maybe I didn't explain myself properly. I was talking about the whole maintenance cost calculations. The reasoning behind this is that even if not stated explicitly, a part of the maintenance cost represents corruption due to the inhability of the central government to hold the city. Cities which are very far have higher maintenance costs, and being so far some of the citizens may start feeling part of a different culture, even if they are in the same continent and the same cultural bubble. Also, settling a forbidden palace reduces the maintenance, but also reduces independence movements.
                    OK so you think that distance maintenance should also factor into the rise of independence movements? Sounds reasonable.
                    [QUOTE] Originally posted by OliverFA

                    The key is finding a value that makes independece movements something possible while not being too likely and thus killing player fun. I suppose that's something to be reached through playtesting.[quote]This thing is going to need a ton of playtesting
                    Originally posted by OliverFA

                    It could, but I feel that it would be easier (at least at the first stages of the design) to have just your culture and your "rebel culture". Otherwise if you divide the rebel culture among different ones non of them could be strong enough to become independent. Plus you have the trouble of deciding which city creates which specific culture.
                    I agree, I was planning on baby steps. My plan for 0.1 would be to just get "rebel culture" and civ spawning by flipping through that process. Everything else can wait until later.
                    Originally posted by OliverFA

                    Good luck! Please keep us posted on your progresses :-)
                    Thank you I assure you all I am very serious about this.

                    Originally posted by Unimatrix11
                    That many rebel cultures would prevent a specific one to actually trigger some sort of revolt would be just fine - "devide and conquer" - the revolt should trigger when any of the rebel cultures gets close to surpass the motherland´s in that specific city.
                    The Peoples Liberation Front of Judea and the Liberation Front for the People of Judea vying for revolution rights? While possibly more realistic I think I will keep it simple and try to get it so that each "colony zone" has just one generic movement. I favour fun over simulation.

                    Originally posted by Unimatrix11

                    While You are at it - please check if You can tie this rise of rebel culture (and colony maintainance cost) to cultural blob connection rather than continents, as discussed in another thread. This way, a canadian argentina would could as a colony, too, as right now it wouldnt, since they are both on the same continent - while a japansese corea does count for colony mantainance, just because they are devided by a few tiles of water...
                    Yes I read the other threads on this issue and so will look into it. If I do this it probably won't be until I have nailed down the key parts of the mod (unless it is really simple to do in which case I will make a seperate mod to do just that).

                    Thanks for the feedback everyone!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Vaugula
                      OK so you think that distance maintenance should also factor into the rise of independence movements? Sounds reasonable.
                      My opinion is that distance maintenance is an indication on how far the city population feel themselves to be from the capital. Something like "perceived distance". This perceived distance is many times more important than the real distance. And anyway, it's something that the game designers have already calculated for you ;-)

                      Of course other factors could be used, such as number of unhappy citizens and so. But as you say I think that would be for your version 0.2

                      Originally posted by Vaugula
                      I agree, I was planning on baby steps. My plan for 0.1 would be to just get "rebel culture" and civ spawning by flipping through that process. Everything else can wait until later.
                      That's very reasonable. Once you have the system created and working, you can tweak it to adjust the speed. But first make it work.

                      Originally posted by Vaugula
                      Thank you I assure you all I am very serious about this.
                      Well if you need some playtester... ;-)
                      "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
                      "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

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