Apostolic Palace - Expiry of effect.

[trev]

This wonder through its diplomatic nature affects all civilizations and therefore in my opinion its effect should be terminated when the first civ learns Mass Media not when its owner learns mass media. I played a game where the civ was having votes for religious leader right to the end of the game, surely not the idea of this wonder which is supposed to expire.

[CerberusIV]

Yes, I just had this annoying little problem - I had actually built the UN and, because the Japanese hadn't discovered Mass Media Tokugawa was repeatedly elected to the Apostolic Palace even though I was busy getting UN resolutions passed.

Not sure if the AP should go once someone discovers Mass Media but it should surely go once the UN is built.

[atlanticskies]

How do you decline membership?

I have long switched to free religion but still keep having to vote on their stupid resolutions (and if they are passed and I didn't DEFY I have to go along with them!)

Is there some way to opt out of the AP in the late game I am not familiar with ??

[enderw]

Well, sometimes I have given Mass Media to the owner of AP to avoid the diplomatic headache. Of course the AI actually takes it despite using it to stop every war I was winning.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by atlanticskies
How do you decline membership?

I have long switched to free religion but still keep having to vote on their stupid resolutions (and if they are passed and I didn't DEFY I have to go along with them!)

Is there some way to opt out of the AP in the late game I am not familiar with ??

I'm having that problem, though it's midgame for me. Anyway, the owner of the AP (Huyana) is a vassal to Genghis, who, true to form, just declared war on me. Huyana also has 4 shrines, and only 3 cities. He, also, is bordering me, between me and Genghis.

I predict the AP situation will be resolved in short order, as *I* become the owner of the AP and 4 shrines.

Wodan

[atlanticskies]

Ahhh yes... good old Genghis. As predictable as a fart in an elevator...

Originally posted by wodan11
I predict the AP situation will be resolved in short order, as *I* become the owner of the AP and 4 shrines.

Heheh... I hope his stupid Quecha's are ready!

[wodan11]

Originally posted by atlanticskies
Ahhh yes... good old Genghis. As predictable as a fart in an elevator...

Yeah. Actually, it was funny. I was attacking Asoka, along with my "buddy" Genghis, when Asoka capitulated to him. I was cursing for a minute or two, then I came to my senses: Genghis was in "domination" mode, and all I had to do was wait a few turns.

Heheh... I hope his stupid Quecha's are ready!

Yeah. Actually, he's got longbows and knights. Meanwhile I have Cavalry and riflemen. As I said, the conclusion is pretty predetermined at this point. The only thing that could save Huyana is if Genghis suddenly gets Rifles too, but I think he's still 4-5 techs away.

Plus, Genghis is splitting his attention between me and Cyrus (my vassal). I keep carving up his stacks, while he's having mixed results vs Cyrus. Problem is that Cyrus is also getting attacked from Alexander, way on the other side. Go figure: I don't care much if Cyrus goes down. If he lasts long enough to divert Genghis' attention, he's served his purpose. Thus is the role of the vassal.

Wodan

[Blaupanzer]

Gift Cyrus some units if you want him to last longer. You can't trade units any more, but you can give them away.

[wodan11]

Considered that. Sometimes that works, but only if you do it a lot. In my experience, the AI often "pisses away" a gifted advanced unit, by continuing to use it even when it is damaged, resulting in frequent death. If, however, you gift a half dozen units or more, the AI seems to use them more intelligently.

Maybe I'm doing the AI a disservice... maybe it makes sense to keep attacking with that advanced unit, as it continues to be better than the alternative, and the AI is on the ropes.

Anyway, I played some more, and what I ended up doing was declaring peace with Alex (which forced Cyrus to declare peace with him as well, as Cyrus was my vassal), and after wiping out Huyana I have gone for the Mongols, as they are my bigger long-term threat. End result is that Cyrus has stayed alive.

Frankly, I didn't really care. I didn't want Genghis to take all of Cyrus' territory, but I didn't mind if Alexander got it, as Genghis was #2 on score while Alexander was #10 or so. If Genghis got stronger, he would have been a threat. Alex wasn't going to be a threat no matter what.

Wodan

[jkp1187]

I'm kinda of the opinion that it should expire whenever the United Nations is constructed.... That way it keeps to the original rule where the technologies discovered by one civ do not affect the wonders of another.

[wodan11]

A better idea is that it doesn't affect those not of the owner's religion, and if the owner has no State religion, then it has no effect (other than culture).

Conceptually, there's no problem with the AP and UN both being in play. It makes sense, too... the AP is in effect in real life, but has diminished effect (more because there are much fewer nations of Catholic faith, than because the UN has been built).

Wodan

[Harrier UK]

As my question is about how the Apolistic Palace works - I will ask it here.

I have built the palace. I have three other civs who have the same state religion as me. I have been voted as the leader of the AP at least three times.

So how do I put forward resolutions??

All that happens is that every so often a new leader is voted for - and I win. No prompt for selecting a resolution.

I have the game off the disc with Solvers AI bug fixes.

Any help will be appreciated.

[Civilized 67]

In my opinion, the AP should expire during the middle of the 17th century, as religious leaders had little sway over the actions of world leaders after the 30yrs war. To translate that into Civ IV terms, "Liberalism" or "Nationalism" should spell the end for the AP, IMHO...

While I certainly understand the reasoning behind including the Apostolic Palace in BtS, I hate it with a passion and wish there was some way to disable it. It makes "Domination", already the hardest path to victory, even harder!

And that makes me very, very angry!...

[nbarclay]

I already posted this in another thread, but I'll go ahead and post it here too because the other thread's name doesn't show clear ties to the Apostolic Palace.


The file GameInfo\CIV4VoteSourceInfos.xml controls the frequency of votes in the U.N. and Apostolic Palace. Increasing the intervals could take away most of the organizations' power, perhaps even to a point where there will never be more than one vote. Also, in GlobalDefines.XML, I found the entries DEFY_RESOLUTION_POP_ANGER and DEFY_RESOLUTION_ANGER_DIVISOR. If DEFY_RESOLUTION_POP_ANGER means what its name implies, it could be modified to reduce the amount of anger that results from defying resolutions, or quite possibly to eliminate the anger entirely. Assuming I'm right about what these parameters mean, changing either or both could make the game a lot more fun for people who regard the Apostolic Palace as overpowered.