National Wonder Timing

[Chopper]

In addition to having National Wonder plans for your cities, is there a point of decreasing returns for National Wonders i.e. the later you build them the less "bang for buck". As a builder, I often delay building Herioc Epic for long periods. The Easter Island dudes have brought this strategy front and centre and have made me re-think National Wonders entirely. I am now really confused on when to build Maoi Statues. Is it as ASAP build or a max water tiles build with mininmal hills? Also, should you time Oxford before Scientific method, or doesn't it matter that much?

Cheers

ChopChop

[ColdPhoenix]

It depends on the wonder, resource availability (I'll wait if it's a few turns until I hook up the marble) and the city I want to build it in but generally, once I know which city I'm building it in, as long as it has a granary and forge I'll start building the wonder.

I build the Heroic Epic in my "military city" which is mostly pumping out units constantly so, unless I'm struggling in a difficult war, it makes sense to build it early and so get the extra hammers earlier so they count for more.

All of the national wonders that I build every game help the civ a lot so geeting the maximum benefit from them is the thing to do. I'm not in such a rush to build the Hermitage, there are games when I even forget to build it... I also don't build the National Wonder straight away, I normally build it in my capital and at that early stage in the game it will be busy with more important projects like the Great Library.

I like to try and get a decent city site for the Maoi Statues so I wouldn't rush it too much. I wait for a city with 10 or more water tiles (hopefully some seafood), a couple of hills can be nice to speed the initial build. Once I get a city that meets those criteria I'll get it built reasonably quickly. You don't get a huge benefit from the statues until the city gets larger so it's not as much of a rush as something like the forbidden palace.

[MattDoyle]

Oxford before Sci-Method is great if you have the GL in the same city, but otherwise i dont think it matters too much, I just try to build it ASAP after aquiring Education.

The maoi statues are great, i try to maximise the water tiles in the city, but you still need some hills i think to get the maximum benefit.

I really struggle with wall street, i seem to take for ever to get this one up and running.

[Blake]

A lot of the time it depends on resource availability.

The National Epic is one of the most powerful National Wonders, but it adds artist pollution. Don't build it if you don't want artists, unless you have at least 3 other sources (ie Great Library provides 3 scientist sources, so go ahead and build the NE). Also the NE is significantly less effective for Philosophical Civs or when running Pacifism, it's probably best to delay it until you have about 5 non-artist sources. If both Phi and Pacifism? Don't bother until end game, if at all.

The Heroic Epic is good if you have a strong production city which WONT be getting Ironworks. If you have Marble it's much more affordable, but even without marble it's not that expensive... but if you lack a couple of good hammer cities you may not want it until it gets trivially cheap. It doesn't do much for whip/draft based army "recruitment".

The Oxford University is very nice and should be built in your best commerce city ASAP few questions asked. The only exception is when your best commerce city is also your best hammer city and also a shrine city (meaning it's your uber capital), you might want Ironworks + Wallstreet. But do get it asap, research speed is a driving force in CIV.

Wallstreet should go in a shrine/HQ city or your best available commerce city. It is pricey but once you have factories/coal plants that doesn't matter much. You can also just build it in your Ironworks city if no other city has a prayer of building it (and no shrine/HQ city).

Ironworks is CRITICAL. Always get it ASAP, it's nearly always worth plonking it with a Great Engineer, if you have one available. This can be a good way to get the IW on a relatively hammer starved map (basically the more hammer starved you are, the more you need the IW, and the more hammers you have, the easier it is to build, you just can't go wrong!). IW can be reasonably paired with National Epic, Wallstreet, Oxfords [trade capital only], Globe Theater or Forbidden Palace.

Hermitage is rubbish, rarely build it. Except for Cultural Victories.

Globe Theater has an associated exploit (whipping/drafting exploit). Other than that the main use is putting it in the Ironworks city so you have a super-production city which is immune to War Weariness and other health woes.

Maoi Statues should either go in a hammer-strong city with some worked coast (like 4+ tiles), or a hammer-poorish city with many coast tiles. Bear in mind, ocean is fairly rubbish, even with Maoi Statues, unless you have Colossus. It's the lake, coast and ocean sea food which matters. Timing mostly depends on whether you have stone or not.

National Park should ideally go in a city with as many forests as possible. In this case the preserves also provide the extra happiness needed to make use of the health benefits... sans-preserves you may not bother with it. Remember it eliminates Coal, meaning no Coal Plant, 50% Ironworks, no Ironclads and no Aluminum Co (So be wary of building it in your shrine/Wallstreet city). You probably want to build it in OCC despite the loss of coal.

Forbidden Palace is very timing related... One question is: Are you going to run State Property? If you are, it may still be worth building, but only if you did some early conquests and have a very nice hammer city. It can go okay with Ironworks or maybe Heroic Epic (other than that building it in a city which already has HE is a waste of the HE). If you aren't going to run SP it's an okay build - basically build it once you have a somewhat distant, nice hammer city.

West Point is pretty trivial, if you're going to build it, pair it with the Heroic Epic. However most the time I don't build it because I settle my GE's, and it ties up the HE city anyway unless you plonk it with a GE. It's good for Quality over Quantity strats (but quantity tends to beat quality).

Red Cross should be built in an unimportant city, you don't need many medic enabled units. It's best if it's a port city for medic carriers and transports (free healing for transported units, basically).

Scotland Yard should also be built in an unimportant city.

[=DrJambo=]

Interesting Blake!

One question - why is it not advisable for Phil civs using Pacifism to build the NE? Wouldn't that be 300%?

[Thrak]

I think the general gist is that great artists suck and you're better off not getting one.

Not sure if I agree anymore, golden ages kick ass - and thats what I will be saving any generated great artists for - so I might just ramp up the GP productio and go for a mixed pool.

[Jet7]

As a builder, I often delay building Herioc Epic for long periods.

As a builder, I am always eager to build it. Then (hopefully) just one city can build units and other cities can buildings.

I am now really confused on when to build Maoi Statues. Is it as ASAP build or a max water tiles build with mininmal hills?
ASAP, I don't think so. It's very map-dependent. The tiles are fine, not that great unless you're Financial. They're good for what you said, or if you happen to want to put Heroic Epic or Ironworks on the coast.

Also, should you time Oxford before Scientific method, or doesn't it matter that much?
Before. It's too valuable to wait. Of course, the exact value and priority depends on the extent to which you can create a high-science city and build the other Universities.

[Blake]

Originally posted by =DrJambo=
Interesting Blake!

One question - why is it not advisable for Phil civs using Pacifism to build the NE? Wouldn't that be 300%?

Diminishing Returns.

The first +100% doubles your GPP.
The next +100% only increases it by one half.
The final +100% only increases it by one third.

Effectively, you only get one third the benefit from the National Epic if you already have +200%. In other words: If you'd pay 3 times as much for it under +0% circumstances, then go ahead and build it.

[=DrJambo=]

Ok, so it's not 100 %, then a futher 100 % of that new value, then 100 % of that. Instead it's 300 % right off the bat.

hmm. Then I agree.