Espionage

[Dactyl]

Is there a good, detailed explanation of the espionage system for BtS anywhere? I don't think the manual or the Civilopedia are that useful. For example, when I bring up the lists of civs with which I've made contact on the lower right side of the screen, some of them will have little spy icons next to them. I can't find out exactly what that means. I'm also not clear on what I need to do to make sure that the other civs can't conduct successful spy missions against me.

[Wiglaf]

The icon means you have more espionage points than they do (your ratio of EPs is higher than theres) for that turn.

For instance, if it reads by Mansa Musa "455/2000" (when you mouse over his name), you have 2000 EPs directed at him, and he has 455 directed at you. Your missions will be cheaper than his, and you'll start getting significant passive bonuses. Keep in mind the 455/2000 ratio is a running total. Next turn, if you gain 455 EP, it will read 455/2455, for example..Mansa really screwed in this case big time.

When you go to do a mission in Mansa's territory, you are drawing from that bank of 2000. So, if you poison his water supply, you might see the ratio change to 455/1700. If you poison his water supply in Marathon game speed, you are taking advantage of the fact that Firaxis does not playtest its games.

The better the ratio, the cheaper your missions will cost in EPs. (espionage points). You gain a different amount of EPs every turn against every civ. Go to the espionage screen to direct espionage points to each civ. Also, use the espionage slider to influence how many EPs you have to spend total.

To prevent other civs from spying on you,
a) put spies in your cities
b) do the counterespionage mission with a spy in an eneny city
c) build improvements like security bureau
d) get a good EP ratio against the civ you want to counterspy (his missions will be more expensive)

[Jvstin]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
When you go to do a mission in Mansa's territory, you are drawing from that bank of 2000. So, if you poison his water supply, you might see the ratio change to 455/1700. If you poison his water supply in Marathon game speed, you are taking advantage of the fact that Firaxis does not playtest its games.

I'm not a playtester, Wiglaf, but I find that editorial comment a little insulting, especially when its mixed in with an otherwise useful and practical answer to the question.


If you poison his water supply in Marathon game speed, you are taking advantage of (currently) an imbalance in the game that magnifies the effect of the mission on the slower speed.

[Dactyl]

Thanks for the information, Wiglaf.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Jvstin
I'm not a playtester, Wiglaf, but I find that editorial comment a little insulting, especially when its mixed in with an otherwise useful and practical answer to the question.

But that is often Wiglaf's purpose in life (while posting) -- to be insulting!

It's obvious in most of his posts, though a few months ago it was even worse. The real problem is that some of his posts have value now, so it may not be appropriate to add him to your ignore list.

[Wiglaf]

BTS has some problems that are caused by Firaxis' laziness. They had the fans make half the scenarios, program all of the new AI, design some of the new graphics, etc.

I don't have a problem with using fan content. It makes the game a lot better. ..The trouble is that Firaxis simply copy/pasted in the fan content without adequately testing it.

Also, whoever designed Afterworld needs to lay off the marijuana.

[snoopy369]

I'm glad you are fully aware of the entire process Wiggie I've learned a lot about the testing process from reading your posts

[Wiglaf]

I've learned a lot about it by playing the game..

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
If you poison his water supply in Marathon game speed, you are taking advantage of the fact that Firaxis does not playtest its games.

It would be fairer and more accurate to characterize the playtesting procedure as imperfect rather than as nonexistent. The more complex a piece of software is, the harder it is to develop test procedures that fully explore every possible combination of features and events. Given the enormous complexity of Civ IV, it is not hard to see how a few combinations of features and game speeds could be missed. That is especially true in the case of Marathon, which takes longer to play through a game for testing purposes, which in turn means that it makes sense for Firaxis to do most of its in-house testing on other speeds. And beta testing is always a hit-or-miss proposition that depends on what the particular users involved in the testing process happen to try, and on what they notice and bother to report.

Marathon speed was essentially an afterthought, something that wasn't included in Civ IV until a patch. As such, I think it properly belongs under the heading, "It's available if you like it, and if you don't like it because we've been too busy with other things to playtest it as thoroughly as we do the more standard settings, you don't have to use it." Personally, I've never used it because of the extra time that playing on Marathon would require and because of the fundamental balance problems inherent in slowing down the game that much. (A normal balance of military and civilian production costs would make it hard for a civ that starts a war with a weak army to build a credible defense before being overrun, while addressing that problem by reducing military production costs tends to favor warfare over building.) But it's there for people who find it enjoyable.

[Wiglaf]

I know, it was sort of a joke. My point is that since Firaxis relied on fans to make much of BTS, they should have had more time to work out the minor kinks that are in the game. I'm sure a patch will come along soon, anyway.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
I know, it was sort of a joke. My point is that since Firaxis relied on fans to make much of BTS, they should have had more time to work out the minor kinks that are in the game.

Not necessarily. It may well be that Firaxis put at least as much time into creating new content themselves as they did with previous expansion packs, but used content created by fans as an opportunity to channel their own efforts in different directions and to increase the total amount of content in BtS. In that case, the fan content presumably made their testing activities more difficult than they would have been otherwise (i.e. if Firaxis had done an equal amount of work creating content itself without using content created by fans), because they had to do at least some testing on what they got from fans in addition to testing what they created themselves. My inclination is that Firaxis wasn't lazy; they were just busy doing a zillion other things.

[snoopy369]

It was a joke that is unlikely to be well taken by those who participated in playtesting the game, and is rather unfair and rude to them.

[Blaupanzer]

Wiglaf is rude, and his mouth (in writing) is quicker than his brain. This is not news. What is news is that some of his recent comments have actually been useful.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Blaupanzer
What is news is that some of his recent comments have actually been useful.

He's been blowing that trend the past couple of days however.

[Wiglaf]

It is mostly true that Firaxis does not playtest its games. Firaxis first asks fans to program AI, scenarios, etc .. then it asks fans to test the game. This is my point. Firaxis is lazy. Their input in BTS is dwarfed by the fans.