Duel maps - too easy?

[couerdelion]

I’ve just been playing a duel game and I found myself thinking this is rather too easy. Perhaps it also appears a little slower tech-wise but I guess that is probably due to the lack of trade (for commerce or tech/gold trading). There are also other factors which make it very different from standard games

Most dramatically, resources are now restricted. Often there may be limited sources of key resources – I found two horses, one copper and two iron in my current game and in a game of two players, one of you will lose out. These resources are now even more important than in a normal game where they are abundant. Not only that, but if you get the resource, you can be pretty sure that your rival doesn’t

There are also whole swathes of the tech tree that lose value. Alphabet now is only a tech by which you acquire access to other buildings or features. Currency is now reduced in value.

The cause of these problems, as is often the case, is religion. Assuming that you want your own shrine, you will find that it is almost impossible to share a religion with your neighbour so they will almost certainly refuse to trade or open borders. In any case, it’s you against them so there seems little reason to offer them your trade in return for theirs.

Since with a little luck, access to the resources can make for a very simple game. But there seems little reason to wait too long before you attack. Strike as soon as you are ready and the game doesn’t even start to become challenging. Even without metals, you can wait for Construction and then it is just a matter of catapults by the dozen and the game is over before the renaissance.

Maybe it is because the duel game is so linear that it becomes easy. Or maybe my current game simply left me lucky to start with. Thebes was on a small island although had abundant food resources. Even so, this is an Immortal level game and I feel that the challenge has been little more than Emperor level.

Would others consider the duel game to be a lot easier too?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Metals? Wait for construction? RELIGION!!!???

Bah. Archer rush the hell out of the AI. At the least you can deny them resources and prevent growth with a squeeze maneuver while you build a proper army.

In other words, yes, they are too easy vs AI.

[yin26]

Indeed, I find my greatest challenge (while still being reasonably doable without resorting to over-specialized strats or micro) is:

Aggressive AI, 7 opponents (or more), land map, on Monarch. What I find here is that it's a great risk focusing too much on one particular tech branch because even if you take out a neighbor or two with pure military, the remaining AIs have had time to build up a more balanced empire leading either to better tech attacks or a space race victory. In these cases, diplo (which religion pretty much dictates most of the time) becomes a real concern in order to buy yourself time...or friends.

So when you reduce the game to a rather simple matter of taking out an opponent (or even two), you can afford to be very linear, which, while fun for some --many?-- players, is really boring to me and circumvents many of the better elements of the game's design, IMO.

[couerdelion]

UnO,

Wouldn’t this be very expensive? Building a proper army still needs the techs and resources while and expensive army will slow down research. By this time, your rival will have over half a dozen archers in their 60% culture capital and is building them faster than you can build swords.

Also it is a lot more expensive to build an army when you do not share the same land mass as your opponent.

Yin,

The problem with larger maps is that the trading options with friendly neighbours makes the game just as easy – though a little more complex. Duelling just seems to reduce the game to a simple fight to the finish because the more longer term solutions are too tedious.

Maybe I’ll use the game to run up a Cultural or Space age victory just for the fun of it.

[Solver]

Duel is too easy. It's mostly for MP. It's not really how SP civ is supposed to be. On a Duel map, you win if you execute one good attack - whereas on a larger map, it's only one of the many steps. Just choke the AI, or Chariot-rush, and that's it. You just need to damage them early on enough to give you advantage when you get metals. Then it's a simple matter of overrunning them with Axemen.

[UnOrthOdOx]

That's the same setup I prefer, for those reasons, Yin. (toss in raging barbs, but yeah)

The aggressive AI regular-large map on monarch allows plenty of variation without pigeonholing yourself into a dedicated strat. I've been toying with never announcing a state religion to leave more diplomacy options in such games. To rather good effect (provided I have a few happy resources).

@ couredelion, the sad thing is the AI often does not hole up archers in the capitol. It'll instead suicide some in an attempt to kill off yours that are forted on the hill outside it's capitol. And it tends to forget about building more cities. So you can often force it into an OCC situation while you expand. It doesn't take many units to pull this off, thus doesn't cost you much support.

As for the larger maps, yes trade allows you to get all resources most the time, but it becomes rather difficult to maintain firends with aggressive AI...I've never tried, but I wonder how turning down resources to scarce would effect such a game.

[ColdPhoenix]

I've only played duel map once. Got my highest ever score with a very early conquest victory. As said before, not really a good option in SP.

[couerdelion]

So I guess that Deity level is no different then? I have this idea that I might find the AI with more cities than I have archers.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Well, a diety duel map will be harder than an emperor duel, sure.

But it's nowhere near as difficult as a regular size diety map. That's all we're saying. The AI really isn't designed to deal with duel maps.

[darrelljs]

For a while I was playing a LOT of Duel maps. The key is using a map script such as custom continents that guarantees no contact prior to Astronomy. Then it is simply a nice builder's challenge, and a good way to gauge where you are at without the crutch of an early war.

Darrell

[yin26]

Originally posted by couerdelion
Duelling just seems to reduce the game to a simple fight to the finish because the more longer term solutions are too tedious.

Ah, it's been a while since I played with a tech whoring mindset. I agree, of course, that if you want a quick game focused on military wins, then that setup is fine...if a bit easy, as you ask.

[yin26]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
That's the same setup I prefer, for those reasons, Yin. (toss in raging barbs, but yeah)

Raging barbs...good for you! I fiddled with that at some point and found it interesting. I haven't played with it for months now, though. I wonder why...maybe I like a little more peace and quiet in the early game...though I do miss the added experience points and the occasional AI that gets hit.

[Jvstin]

Originally posted by Solver
Duel is too easy. It's mostly for MP. It's not really how SP civ is supposed to be. On a Duel map, you win if you execute one good attack - whereas on a larger map, it's only one of the many steps. Just choke the AI, or Chariot-rush, and that's it. You just need to damage them early on enough to give you advantage when you get metals. Then it's a simple matter of overrunning them with Axemen.

Its noteworthy that one of my best wins was on a Duel map. I managed to get iron, the computer opponent did not, and my legions (I was playing Julius) conquered the (small) world.

It was fun for a one-off, but I'd rather play a larger map.

[joncnunn]

This is with Warlords since BTS it's out quite yet in the US, but yes, my highest score by far is a duel map.
Conquest victory playing the Romans (Julius) in early 1st century AD resulting in leadership as good as Augustus. Pangena
It appeared to me a symptom of same AI used in all situations; the poor AI couldn't recongize that in a duel map of that type their human opponent is a war mongler.

It helped that Iron was in my CR while the Greek AI wasn't close enough to either an Iron or Copper Source, but their devotation to wonders instead of units was what sealed their fate.