The AI cannot defend itself

[couerdelion]

I am forever amazed at the AI’s complete failure to understand even the simplest of ideas for combat and fighting wars. Faced with an overpowerful creative neighbour -such civs are viruses that need to be wiped out - I saw no alternative to marching across the border and hitting them hard. Facing well fortified cities (most had walls and many had 40% or more culture, my secret weapon was Swordsmen (or was it surprise). On the power graph, I was sitting at something approaching three-quarters of their strength and with lower production, the element of surprise was likely to be crucial in turning the war decisively in my favour and in avoiding a long-drawn out slug-fest.

The fact that the AI had the Great Wall also made me a little nervous that even my best laid plans.

The result was a shockingly weak AI – I still wonder where all his units are because I’ve yet to meet anything approaching resistance. Most cities, had little more than an archer and a spearman so it has been only a matter of escorting swords up to the city and then sending them over the top. I’ve now captured 5 cities (3 razed) and 5 wonders and the only time where I saw any defence was the shrine city (+Stonehenge, GreatWall, Parthenon) which sneaked in a second Axeman just before I attacked.

What resolve I did encounter I acquired from the oh-so-generous RNG which managed, almost without fail, to award the first assault to the defender. Even when I caught an axeman in the open escorting a settler, my Chariot was lost (<8% chance). When CR II Swords can’t kill a Spear garrison, something is not going your way. I end up gifting GG points to Louis while I’m left collecting the odd 1 (2 if I’m lucky) when I send my CR I swords in to finish off 10% archer defenders

But the RNG is not my main gripe. It is the shocking level of defence that the AI has despite it’s huge production advantages and some serious treasures to protect. Examples are

Lyons – Contains Pyramids, Resources (Corn, Pigs, Stone, Gold) defended by Archer and Spear
Orleans – Contains Hindu Shrine, Stonehenge, Great Wall, Parthenon, fat cross contains Wheat, Marble and several floodplains. City defended by Archer, Spear and Axeman (or two archers and Axeman) with a second Axeman arriving later.

Lyons, although lightly defended, might have been caught slightly off-guard. But Orleans had plenty of warning. Paris, along with it’s Temple to Artemis and Oracle, is now in view and it doesn’t seem to offer much more resistance than the rest.

[Nor Me]

I assume you're not using Better AI. They even defend cities with wonders more in it. It gives hope that this will be better in BTS.

Do wonders count towards power?

[Swiss Pauli]

Non-AGG IND leaders like Louis are particularly vulnerable to Wonder-syndrome. The RNG dials up too many wonders and not enough troops, even at Emperor. I had a similar situation with Roosy in one game and, by my reckoning, he had 5 cities and was building wonders in three of the them concurrently (Lighthouse, Pyramids w/o stone, Parthenon). Needless to say they became my Wonders in fairly short order...

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli
Non-AGG IND leaders like Louis are particularly vulnerable to Wonder-syndrome. The RNG dials up too many wonders and not enough troops, even at Emperor. I had a similar situation with Roosy in one game and, by my reckoning, he had 5 cities and was building wonders in three of the them concurrently (Lighthouse, Pyramids w/o stone, Parthenon). Needless to say they became my Wonders in fairly short order...

My guess then is that the power graph is severely over-emphasising the effect of walls and/or culture.

But it is quite disappointing that it is almost too simple to turn a mighty giant into a weakling with nothing more than a continuous stream of swords. The only excitement I’m getting from the game at the moment is when I build a chariot or axeman.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Nor Me

Do wonders count towards power?

Yes. Sadly. The power graph is next to worthles for determining relative military strength in my experience. It's the demographics screen and troop numbers there that is far more interesting.

Makes me wonder if the AI looks at the power graph as an indicator of it's military strength...

[couerdelion]

Now that’s a little confusing. I had assumed that the Power graph and the troop numbers were synonymous. Since the troop numbers only shows highest, lowest and average, how then do you know what a particularly rival has in the way of military strength?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Yes...the Power Graph is a direct result of the "soldiers" on the demographics screen. But the demographs give you specific numbers so you can extrapolate an approximation of actual troop numbers. Assuming you're attacking the largest or weakest, yes.

You can even get fairly accurate readings by comparing your position on the graph to your intended target. I've known some to do pixel counts to give the 'soldiers' number of intended targets with remarkable accuracy.

You then take what you know about them, and apply the following to it and you can get a decent guess on what you actually face in terms of initial units.

This is from Vanilla, but you get the idea: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/stra...mographics.php

Soldiers- This has been the most intensive and by far the longest to research, as there are many factors that contribute to this number. Firstly it has no bearing on the total units you have in fact you could have zero units but show 100000+ soldiers in the demo screen, you will see how in a second.
Factor 1- Population points. For every two population points from all your cities you get 1000 soldiers. So;
1pop = 0 soldiers
2pop= 1000
3pop= 1000
4pop= 2000
5pop= 2000
6pop= 3000 and so on.

Factor 2- Technologies. Discovering some technologies (mostly military but not exclusively) gives you extra soldiers. I have to say some of them struck me as a little strange, like Military tradition gives you zero but hunting gives you 2000, but I’m not here to argue about that. Here is the list of techs that give you soldiers. If they are not listed then they give zero soldiers.

2000 soldiers – Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry
4000 soldiers- Guilds, Wheel, Alphabet, Astronomy, Metal Casting, Compass, Construction, Steel, Radio, Satellites
6000 soldiers- Mathematics, Chemistry, Combustion, Archery
8000 soldiers- Fission, Flight, Bronze Working, Machinery, Assembly Line
10000 soldiers- Horseback Riding, Iron Working, Artillery, Industrialism, Rocketry
12000 soldiers- Gunpowder, Rifling

Factor 3- City Improvement/Wonders. Like discovering some technologies, build certain improvements and wonders will increase the amount of soldiers you have on the demo screen. In this case you amount added for each improvement. For example you get 2000 soldiers for each wall you build, so if you have 5 walls, you have an extra 10000 soldiers. With wonders that give you soldiers, you can only build one so you only get that bonus once. Here is the list of what you get for each improvement. Improvements that don’t give soldiers are not listed.

2000 soldiers- Walls, Castles, Dry dock, Forge, Factory
4000 soldiers- Barracks, Mt. Rushmore, Red Cross, Iron works
8000 soldiers- Heroic Epic, Chichen Itza, Scotland Yard, West Point

Factor 4- Units. Finally each unit type has a different amount of soldiers attached to it, so a warrior contributes 1000 soldiers, while a Swordsman is 3000 soldiers. Interestingly enough a units experience points has no bearing on the amount of soldiers it equates to. Units such as scouts, workers missionaries and spies contribute zero soldiers to the demo screen. Here is the full list of what you get for each unit;

1000 soldiers – Warrior, Quechua
2000 soldiers – Axeman, Spearman, Archer, Chariot, Galley
3000 soldiers – Swordsman, Phalanx, Skirmisher, War Chariot, Immortal, Horse Archer, Catapult, Caravel
4000 soldiers – Jaguar, Praetorian, Maceman, Pikeman, Longbowman, Crossbowman, Keshik, War Elephant, Galleon
5000 soldiers – Samurai, Cho-Ko-Nu,
6000 soldiers – Musketman, Knight, Frigate, Ironclad, Transport,
8000 soldiers – Musketeer, Camel Archer, Conquistador, Cannon, Destroyer, Submarine
10000 soldiers – Rifleman, Grenadier, Machine Gun, Carrier
12000 soldiers – Redcoat, Cavalry, Battleship
15000 soldiers – Cossack, Fighter, Jet Fighter, Bomber
16000 soldiers – Infantry
18000 soldiers – Marine
20000 soldiers – SAM Infantry, Gunship, Artillery, Stealth Bomber
22000 soldiers – Navy SEAL
25000 soldiers – Tank
30000 soldiers – Panzer, Mechanized Infantry
40000 soldiers – Modern Armor, ICBM

So, an AI with lots of walls, wonders, etc, can very well see itself as having a huge military, when in fact it is but a paper tiger.


You'll find this most usefull if you watch it every turn. (only time I do that is in PBEMs)

For instance, you're at war with someone in the ancient age, they suddenly jump 10000 points on the soldiers score. You know they didn't suddenly build a rifleman or gain 20 pop somewhere. No, they most likely just researched Iron or HBR.

[Virdrago]

That is very wierd and convuluted. Never mind the numbers for building walls, trying to explain 40000 soldiers suddenly off your payroll, as it were, because you blew up an ICBM on the other end of the planet, makes no sense. Did they hitch a ride or carry it themselves, just to sacrifice for the cause?

I guess that may explain the wierd numbers I get when fighting some wars with the most "powerful" civs. Sometimes I would reason that the opposing units were attacking a barb city, especially when they weren't at war with anyone else. I guess that's not the case.

[Brael]

In the case of ICBM's it's likely to represent the power of the unit. The buildings are what interest me, it looks to me like it's there as a way of inflating the military power of civs/players that play a builder style but at the same time if those buildings are there to represent potential (improved building=faster military should you build one=potential power) then shouldn't defensive structures act as multipliers on units in the city rather than adding x soldiers? Surely a city with walls/castle and 10 longbows is stronger than a city with walls/castle and 1 longbow while the remaining 9 are outside of it.

[MattDoyle]

I have recently been playing a game where I fought a war against wang kong, his capital was heavily defended (6+ units), but the rest of his cities weren't (2-4 units each). I captured a few of his lesser defended cities, and then moved onto the capital and took it. After taking the capital, and his palace being repositioned to another city making that one the capital, a whole heap of his units moved from his other cities into the new capital, making the outer cities even easier to capture, with 2 units each, plus i picked off most of his units as they walked past.

I thought that was highly bizzare.

[_BuRjaCi_]

Originally posted by MattDoyle
I have recently been playing a game where I fought a war against wang kong, his capital was heavily defended (6+ units), but the rest of his cities weren't (2-4 units each). I captured a few of his lesser defended cities, and then moved onto the capital and took it. After taking the capital, and his palace being repositioned to another city making that one the capital, a whole heap of his units moved from his other cities into the new capital, making the outer cities even easier to capture, with 2 units each, plus i picked off most of his units as they walked past.

I thought that was highly bizzare.

Hey in the final days of your empire you would want your solders protecting you for as long as possible too.