Questions on Harbors and Specialist Economies

[Brael]

First of all, I've seen it explained here before as to how Harbors work, but I don't think I quite get it in terms of how to make them a benefit. The way I'm looking at them, a harbor basically makes a lower population city count as a higher population city when trade routes are determined. A lower population city is less likely to have the infrastructure in place to really make use of that additional commerce though. So what I find myself wondering is, are Harbors really beneficial beyond the health bonuses, I'm beginning to view them as paying gold for health.

Now, my specialist economy question is unrelated to harbors but I felt it was better to combine the questions rather than make two threads. The question is fairly simple: How do I run one well? Even with a Representation/Angkor Wat powered Priest specialist he's 2 hammers, 1 gold, 3 beakers. A mid game town (say 5 commerce) with an average science rate of 60% would mean I'm getting 2 gold and 3 beakers from it. Now, in this case a specialist is stronger, atleast the best specialist is but before long a town would become stronger. I guess my question is, can specialist economies still be viable later in the game? I often use them early in the game as it allows for more expansion/military while letting me have research but they seem to fail when compared to a more traditional economy later on. People do manage specialist economies for entire games however so I think I'm missing something.

[Kuciwalker]

You're neglecting GPP (though that, too, becomes less valuable in the late game).

[Brael]

I'm usually able to set aside a city or two (or more depending on empire size) to focus on food for great people. It doesn't result in more than I can find a use for, but it's plenty to get needed academies, shrines, and some others. So, I'm not really sure that I'm neglecting it at all. It's certainly not a cornerstone of my economy however.

[Jaybe]

I've seen large cities with harbors have trade routes of 12 or more. Multiply that by 3, 4 or 5!

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Brael
I'm usually able to set aside a city or two (or more depending on empire size) to focus on food for great people. It doesn't result in more than I can find a use for, but it's plenty to get needed academies, shrines, and some others. So, I'm not really sure that I'm neglecting it at all. It's certainly not a cornerstone of my economy however.

I meant in your analysis, not your strategy. A Town doesn't produce GPP, a specialist does, and that should be considered when choosing between one or the other.

[rjmatsleepers]

Re: Questions on Harbors and Specialist Economies

Originally posted by Brael
First of all, I've seen it explained here before as to how Harbors work, but I don't think I quite get it in terms of how to make them a benefit. The way I'm looking at them, a harbor basically makes a lower population city count as a higher population city when trade routes are determined. A lower population city is less likely to have the infrastructure in place to really make use of that additional commerce though. So what I find myself wondering is, are Harbors really beneficial beyond the health bonuses, I'm beginning to view them as paying gold for health.

As I understand it, the harbour does 2 things in addition to the health benefits. It increases the value of trade routes by 50% and it puts the city with a harbour higher up the pecking order when routes are allocated. Because commerce from trade routes is rounded, if you have no foreign trade routes you may get little or no economic benefit from the harbour. This could happen because of your civics, the AI's civics or because you have not yet established a trade connection to an AI civ. In this case you probably won't lose any gold or beakers, but you won't gain much either.

However if you do have trade routes to another civ, the 50% increase will kick in. You will get at least 1 extra commerce on each route and potentially a lot more. Although the allocation of routes will change, it is difficult to construct an example where total commerce across your empire does not increase. However, the 50% increase in your harbour city may be somewhat counterbalanced by a smaller decrease in another city.

The potential killer, is when your infrastructure is significantly different between your gaining and losing city. For example if the losing city has all the available bonus buildings and the gaining city has none of them. In this case, you may be paying gold or beakers for health, but it would be fairly unusual.

RJM

[Brael]

Hmm ok, that would be what I was missing with Harbors then, I swore I read it before here as it making say a size 12 city count as a size 16 city for finding a trade route but the actual commerce obtained would only be the same as any other size 16 city in which case the overall gain to the empire would be very small.

[wodan11]

Try this:
1) Make farms and food resources
2) Get BW
3) Whip early buildings (granary, lighthouse, library)
4) Assign 2 scientists in each city (except production cities) and stop whipping
5) As each city makes a Great Scientist, turn off the scientists, cottage most of the farms, and you can whip again
6) Use GSs to lightbulb things like Philosophy, Paper, Education
7) Get Emancipation as soon as possible. (Don't bother with Sankore, BTW, and don't do a GP Farm.)

You have the best of both worlds. You make Great Scientists in parallel, you get the powerful midgame techs way faster than anyone else, and you have the power of a CE or hybrid late game (whichever you prefer).

Wodan