Terraforming

[Kuciwalker]

The AI could handle it just fine.

[mkorin]

Originally posted by Willem


It has nothing to do with the AI being fixed. Those kinds of decisions are just beyond the ability of today's computers to perform well. At least if you expect it to be on an even field with a human. Deciding to forgo a farm or cottage in order to plant a forest is a judgement call and no AI right now is very good at those sorts of choices. Maybe when our personal computers have the samew processing power as Big Blue, but certainly not right now.

I believe you could fix the AIs upgrade process using a fairly simple truth table. I know my micro-management is done based on % of food and hammers available to the city. I'm sure everyone uses some concrete basis when making these decsions. They may not realize, but math is sneaky like that and it is the unconcious behind a lot of life's daily decsions. For example, I mine all hills regardless of forest. I will leave all forests on plains since it really is a trade off. I will chop forests on grassland if I need the food. Of course that is in my fat square. That logic would be easy to program. I believe the same could be said for other terrain upgrades.
Mike

[ben04]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

On irrigating deserts: How about with Civil Service (which is required to let you irrigate away from rivers anyway), Deserts give +2 food when irrigated instead of +1?

They'd still be completely useless...

No usefull for irrigation chaining. Depending the terrain this can be worth gold!

[Willem]

Originally posted by mkorin
That logic would be easy to program.

Go ahead and do it then.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by ben04
No usefull for irrigation chaining. Depending the terrain this can be worth gold!

You can already irrigation chain through desert, no?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Willem
Go ahead and do it then.

Um, why should he program the AI to make use of a feature not in the game?

[Wiglaf]

Originally posted by Willem


Go ahead and do it then.

I love people who make this retarded argument. "Never complain about anything you can't do better yourself." Right.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
You can already irrigation chain through desert, no?

NO, you canNOT irrigate desert. Therefore you cannot irrigation chain through the desert.

To be able to build an aquaduct from a water source to a city or for irrigation I have no problem with. To be able to terraform terrain to your liking I have EVERY problem with! Gives too much control & predictability to the player. I would prefer more terraforming (ala forest growth) that is not player controlled to simulate short/long-term climate changes.

[patcon]

Originally posted by Jaybe
I would prefer more terraforming (ala forest growth) that is not player controlled to simulate short/long-term climate changes.

That is in the game. Forests and jungles do spread from tiles containing them to adjacent tiles periodically, but I do think that a tile which has been cleared never grows back. I've never seen forest/jungle encroachment into an improved tile, that would really torque me off, and I doubt there would be encroachment into a tile which had its improvement pillaged, although that might be appropriate. I also don't recall ever getting any "A forest has grown near X" messages except early in the game.

Relating to the previous discussion of irrigating deserts, I can live with the idea of unusable tiles like deserts and tundra which do not directly touch fresh water, even though I wish I could. (Those fur and silver tiles in the tundra that are so hard to bring into your borders because they're in lousy areas for city placement are frustrating, especially since we won't ever seem to get my pet missing improvement - the colony/trading post which can combine with another improvement to make the resource available from outside anyone's borders.) But I digress, what would be nice is if you could farm an oasis (duh) and also have an "irrigation canal" improvement which could link a non-fresh-water-adjacent tile to a water supply through desert/tundra without giving a food bonus to that tile.

[Targonis]

The thing is that terraforming is a modern concept that SHOULD be available in various phases as technology improves.

Being able to run a road or a mine through mountains should come with explosives. Being able to do "true terraforming" should come with ecology. Global warming should be something that can be fought with a future technology.

Being able to convert a desert into grassland could be done with enough time and resources(figure 30-50 turns in modern day on marathon game length). The AI would obviously have a similar desire to convert all desert tiles to more useful tiles, so I don't see this as a "only players would be able to take advantage of this".

Planting a forest would also be something that would be desired depending on the civ in question(some civs wouldn't care about planting forests).

Then again, it would be nice to see other "future techs", which hopefully will be included in Beyond the Sword. Who knows, all of this may already be available in July.

[Jaybe]

... but I do think that a tile which has been cleared never grows back. I've never seen forest/jungle encroachment into an improved tile ...

A cut-forest tile may grow back. Forest/jungle will also potentially grow onto a tile with a road, though not any other improvement. I have read a rumor that a roaded tile has LESS chance of forest/jungle growing there than elsewhere. I play huge/marathon games, so that may affect my having seen it happen.

I wouldn't mind grass/plains/desert occasionally changing status due to changing weather patterns. On a huge map (the type I play on) I would envision an area of 3 or 5-tile radius being designated a drying or 'wetting' area over a 1-300 year span, and several tiles in the area changing one degree (e.g., grass-plains, plains-desert) in that time span. This could happen also on hills.

As an historical example Egypt was not as dry in the past as it is now, and the Sahara desert has expanded substantially in the last several hundred (or thousand?) years.

[Xorbon]

I would like to see climate change too. The only problem is you'd get vocal players complaining when their plains city turns into a desert city. Maybe if there was also an option to turn it on/off.

[Jaybe]

A heavy-production city could also turn into a low-production/high-commerce city.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Um, why should he program the AI to make use of a feature not in the game?

Maybe he couldn't program it to plant trees in the game, but he could at least be able to try to get it to not chop forests on certain squares according to his criteria. If it's as easy as he claims, it should be a breeze for him to do. If he can't even get that function to work properly, then there's be no hope in hell of getting the AI to be able to use tree planting effectively. The AI only knows how to chop forests, it doesn't even bother to conserve anything, just clearcuts it's whole territory. There's no way it's going to be able to make use of the ability to actually plant anything. That ability was in Civ 3 and how many times did it make use of it? None.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Wiglaf




I love people who make this retarded argument. "Never complain about anything you can't do better yourself." Right.

What's so retarded about it? You mentioned that it would be easy to program the AI to use those types of behaviours. Prove it.