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**Dale** · March 10, 2007, 22:25

I can guarentee it's not an old engine. (I know, I was on the test team).

What I think is the issue is Blake's AI (as it was at the time) was included without changes to eras or game speed.

Thus it wasn't balanced due to that.

**Zoid** · March 11, 2007, 02:20

Hmm, I'm playing a Warlords game on Monarch where I don't have any significant problems. In fact it's going almost too well...

I've been top three since the start and now it's 1200 AD. I'm convinced this is a fluke though, since I get soundly beaten almost every other time...

**jbp26** · March 11, 2007, 13:04

I posted the following thread a few months back and got only a few lackluster responses. One confirmed the frustration reported almost exactly. Two others indicated that I and my friends are simply using ineffecient gameplay. I guess its hard to separate ego from substance sometimes but in this case I reject that the challenge presented in the current 2.08 patch to Warlords is overcomable through efficient game play on Noble level. It smacks of earlier engines and it ranges from absurdly easy to beat on Noble to nigh impossible on Prince. Not a lot of latitude in one short difficulty jump. I beat it once on a complete game at Prince but only out of prolly thirty tries (Romans), solo, using a military strategy and having the country positioning fall just perfect so my next opponent was always weaker. I had to repositon my capital as well.

you can't use that as justifiable suspicion for an older version since its totally subjective (your experience, that is). to me, prince is absurdly easy, and monarch is nigh impossible, yet we are playing the same game. if you really want to put your mind at ease you can check the xml files or ask around and find out exactly what the bonuses for the AI are at each level. also blake's AI is good for a better sense of fairness, since it makes the AI play better rather than just relying on more bonuses- which to me is not very fun.

the reason you're probably having such trouble going from noble to prince is that youre rooted in some bad gameplay habits that you can get away with on noble, but can't on a higher difficulty. everyone does it. it just takes practice and mixing up your games.

as for the lag issue, i am pretty convinced its not due to the patch. i ran the game for months after i patched it and everything was fine. the lag started spontaneously and no amount of minipulating the game has fixed it. i suspect its a software problem from elsewhere in teh computer thats causing it.

**ZEE** · March 11, 2007, 18:16

Saygame,

i also struggle on prince level. but as mentioned before it is DEFINATELY due to my horrible gameplay that i was used to on Noble. I didnt place my cities in good locations, i was too passive, i ignored my military, i didnt utilize my civilians or workforce effectively, and various other flaws of things that i didnt do... NOW im still not winning Prince level... but at least im never in last place, and im competing with the rest of the AI fairly consistantly. i would say im incredibly average at prince level, and to me that is a big accomplishment. It might be a few more games before i pull of a win, but i dont think the designers changed anything drastically to make it unplayable. I have also been playing Civ1 from the beginning... and Im STILL an avarage player who is learning new tricks every time i play Civ or come to Apolyton. Dont give up though... I didn't

**snoopy369** · March 12, 2007, 04:48

As above players have noted - there's a reason Noble is easy and Prince is hard, and it's because a certain element of play is required to overcome the AI advantages at Prince. Noble is the no-advantage (which is not exactly true, but is approximating the truth) level, where you can with reasonable play out-tech the AI.

At Prince, you have to be better than the AI at teching to out-tech - or even to keep up with - the AI, as it gets a substantial bonus in tech development and in army support, that allows it a larger army while teching the same (and more than you).

Read the strategy threads and strategy guides. Play on Prince repeatedly. At first, hold out for a 'good' start so you aren't playing against the terrain. Then learn the three keys to good strategy at Prince...

COTTAGES. That's really important. You should be mostly building cottages, unless...

SLAVERY. The main reason not to build cottages is to build farms for Slavery. Using slavery to get you through the early game is a pretty important element of gameplay.

BALANCE between building and warring is really hard to work out, especially balancing how you fight the AI. You cannot assume the AIs will all play fair or play well with you; Montezuma will attack you, count on it, you just don't know when. Have the army to repel him, and use other AIs to your advantage.

Also, try to learn some of the elements of the AI strategy. The AI, for example, decides to go to war with you well before it actually does - and it irrevocably decides to war with you, so that means if 20 turns ago Lizzy chooses to war with you due to negative modifiers, and then you improve to a substantially positive modifier (say, religion change) she'll still war with you.

Learn that the AI doesn't war particularly efficiently; the AI rarely sends anything that a stack of [80% bombard units][10% strongest unit available][10% counter units to strongest unit(s) available] can't beat. Catapults conquer all, all the time, and if your armies are less than half catapults or their successors, go build some more.

Learn the tricks to getting ahead in technology [Great People, key techs, key wonders, Optimal Tech Strategies] and learn what points in the game you inevitably will always trail significantly in, and how to deal with that such that you come back and take the tech lead again. Also, learn how to play from behind in the tech race - you should be able to beat the AI even if it has a 10% tech lead over you. Your strategic ability is simply that much more powerful than the static AI.

Try playing Blake's AI current version, also. It might make Noble more of a challenge, which might be better for your preference.

Ultimately though realize that for a player who isn't interested or capable of improving his/her game, what you describe is endemic to all games. I've reached my maximum skill level in Madden, and I have the same problem; level I easily win at, next level I get beat repeatedly at. If you are capable and willing to learn to play better, do so; if you aren't, then you need to move on.

**Saygame** · March 13, 2007, 02:22

Originally posted by Dale
I can guarentee it's not an old engine. (I know, I was on the test team).

What I think is the issue is Blake's AI (as it was at the time) was included without changes to eras or game speed.

Thus it wasn't balanced due to that.

Thanks, Dale. Exactly what we wanted to know: A. not an old engine reworked (whew) and B. a new balancing problem was created. Feels like you guys knew it at the time but were under some constraints to push it out the door anyway. That I economically understand.

**Saygame** · March 13, 2007, 02:24

Originally posted by Zoid
Hmm, I'm playing a Warlords game on Monarch where I don't have any significant problems. In fact it's going almost too well...

I've been top three since the start and now it's 1200 AD. I'm convinced this is a fluke though, since I get soundly beaten almost every other time...

Us, too Zoid. I’ve never relied much on score as a game indicator. Sure I win at the end if I’m on top but there’s too much score doesn’t tell about where you really are at. Say, for example, the Net gold indicators say you’re underperforming by 200gp per turn or your power ratio to the leader is 1:6. Then you’re in trouble or soon will be. If you figure out what contributed to your success I’d be pleased to hear it.

**Saygame** · March 13, 2007, 02:26

Originally posted by jbp26

you can't use that as justifiable suspicion for an older version since its totally subjective (your experience, that is). to me, prince is absurdly easy, and monarch is nigh impossible, yet we are playing the same game. if you really want to put your mind at ease you can check the xml files or ask around and find out exactly what the bonuses for the AI are at each level. also blake's AI is good for a better sense of fairness, since it makes the AI play better rather than just relying on more bonuses- which to me is not very fun.

the reason you're probably having such trouble going from noble to prince is that youre rooted in some bad gameplay habits that you can get away with on noble, but can't on a higher difficulty. everyone does it. it just takes practice and mixing up your games.

as for the lag issue, i am pretty convinced its not due to the patch. i ran the game for months after i patched it and everything was fine. the lag started spontaneously and no amount of minipulating the game has fixed it. i suspect its a software problem from elsewhere in teh computer thats causing it.

Well, JB I hope you’re not into scientific method cause justifiable suspicion (in this case, all three of ours) for just about anything in life starts with a subjective experience, feedback, observation, postulation brainstorming, theory, testing and repeating the cycle until thesis is confirmed. As you’re not open to that, I don’t recommend that for you.

We, as a group, had already made the jump in Civ IV and Warlords vanilla not only from noble to prince but pretty regularly on Monarch as well. To go hurtling back to Noble level for all three of us is alarming. Besides, the Noble AI is inert and thus boring. The middle ground, formerly known as Prince, is gone.

It must have to do with Blake’s AI. I can see some of these touches put into the game to make it a smarter and like you, actually like a smarter thinking AI rather than just more bonuses to overcome.
And we have seen the html bonuses standards by level right here on Apolyton for Civ4. But there’s something else other than just game play habituation that’s at play here. We’ve noticed the AI not being subject to maintainence costs for cities set up in our back yards, or put another way, the Gold graph shows no visible downtick when Lizzy plops down a city in our polar fur field fifty tiles from her capital. We’ve noticed the AI frequently taking repair liberties with moving units who have just been on board with only two upgrades. So some AI changes ARE suspected. Subjectively speaking, of course.

**Saygame** · March 13, 2007, 02:27

Originally posted by AAHZ
Saygame,

i also struggle on prince level. but as mentioned before it is DEFINATELY due to my horrible gameplay that i was used to on Noble. I didnt place my cities in good locations, i was too passive, i ignored my military, i didnt utilize my civilians or workforce effectively, and various other flaws of things that i didnt do... NOW im still not winning Prince level... but at least im never in last place, and im competing with the rest of the AI fairly consistantly. i would say im incredibly average at prince level, and to me that is a big accomplishment. It might be a few more games before i pull of a win, but i dont think the designers changed anything drastically to make it unplayable. I have also been playing Civ1 from the beginning... and Im STILL an avarage player who is learning new tricks every time i play Civ or come to Apolyton. Dont give up though... I didn't

Hey Aahz, I like you style. Thanks for the encouragement and the feedback. And of course, we too are always in the learning mode and quitting isn’t an option.

**Saygame** · March 13, 2007, 02:32

Originally posted by snoopy369
As above players have noted - there's a reason Noble is easy and Prince is hard, and it's because a certain element of play is required to overcome the AI advantages at Prince. Noble is the no-advantage (which is not exactly true, but is approximating the truth) level, where you can with reasonable play out-tech the AI.

At Prince, you have to be better than the AI at teching to out-tech - or even to keep up with - the AI, as it gets a substantial bonus in tech development and in army support, that allows it a larger army while teching the same (and more than you).

Read the strategy threads and strategy guides. Play on Prince repeatedly. At first, hold out for a 'good' start so you aren't playing against the terrain. Then learn the three keys to good strategy at Prince...

COTTAGES. That's really important. You should be mostly building cottages, unless...

SLAVERY. The main reason not to build cottages is to build farms for Slavery. Using slavery to get you through the early game is a pretty important element of gameplay.

BALANCE between building and warring is really hard to work out, especially balancing how you fight the AI. You cannot assume the AIs will all play fair or play well with you; Montezuma will attack you, count on it, you just don't know when. Have the army to repel him, and use other AIs to your advantage.

Also, try to learn some of the elements of the AI strategy. The AI, for example, decides to go to war with you well before it actually does - and it irrevocably decides to war with you, so that means if 20 turns ago Lizzy chooses to war with you due to negative modifiers, and then you improve to a substantially positive modifier (say, religion change) she'll still war with you.

Learn that the AI doesn't war particularly efficiently; the AI rarely sends anything that a stack of [80% bombard units][10% strongest unit available][10% counter units to strongest unit(s) available] can't beat. Catapults conquer all, all the time, and if your armies are less than half catapults or their successors, go build some more.

Learn the tricks to getting ahead in technology [Great People, key techs, key wonders, Optimal Tech Strategies] and learn what points in the game you inevitably will always trail significantly in, and how to deal with that such that you come back and take the tech lead again. Also, learn how to play from behind in the tech race - you should be able to beat the AI even if it has a 10% tech lead over you. Your strategic ability is simply that much more powerful than the static AI.

Try playing Blake's AI current version, also. It might make Noble more of a challenge, which might be better for your preference.

Ultimately though realize that for a player who isn't interested or capable of improving his/her game, what you describe is endemic to all games. I've reached my maximum skill level in Madden, and I have the same problem; level I easily win at, next level I get beat repeatedly at. If you are capable and willing to learn to play better, do so; if you aren't, then you need to move on.

Saved the best for last. I think. Snoopy, what I liked best about your feedback is the thoughtful time you spent, not knowing how much experience it would take us to conquer Prince level, you sprinkled your feedback with tips on how to overcome the difficulty factors. That was not only helpful but thoughtful. Thank you.

I got to Deity level back in CII, Monarch in CIII and C4 and was close to there on Warlords before I and my buds ran up against the wall with this new patch. Elsewhere on Apolyton, you can access my writeup on the aides of spreadsheeting the game, particularly to assess early diplomatic failure because you are so correct about the irreversible computer and her fury. Dead on.

Although I was reticent to try slavery after CivIII, I found slaving to be a viable strategy in C4 if used when cities are small. My friends ditto that. High level cities, other than to forestall unavoidable starvation, are a bad risk because of the ever escalating 2 step food costs after about level 4. Additionally, I think Vel’s concept of achieving critical mass as quickly as possible with number of cities is right on, and slavery seems to set that even further back. Still there are some nations that can’t grew or grow too fast and they are good candidates for your slaving idea. I shall experiment with the concept thanks.

I agree with your portion on cottages and tech. To me, Tech IS Life. Too far behind and they mark your forehead with “Done”. Nothin smarts as bad as tanks rollin in on my Grenadiers after 40 hours of gameplay.
You have to keep up or close, or you will die trying.
But I recently, in an attempt to analyze my play, watched three of my AI opponents (two financial) leapfrog over me and skyrocket in one turn 200 GP/turn. I went from First to Ninth in one turn with no way to recover. My theory is they simultaneously hit Printing Press
but 200??? Never encountered that before the new AI.

You may have noticed we turn off AI trading. In reality we hurt ourselves doin that because the AI IS predictable and one way to catch up on tech is to garnish the techs they don’t beeline for and then trade them back. If they’ll trade them.

Your idea, Snoopy, on achieving critical balance between all the gaming elements, culture, gold, military power is also what has worked for me in the past, albeit, it is the hardest part of the game. Human players always start at the bottom of the power ratings in the early going. And while they can build military force to prevent being the target, they cannot match the computer in tech research, city infrastructure creation and watching the cultural barometer which can also sink you.
And I agree, in the past, human choice in manipulating game critical factors such as culture to create happiness,
City specialization and GPP pumps and critical tweaking at critical times in critical cities, combined with past AI’s military foolishness in the higher levels have given a balancing edge back to the human. To me, it just ain’t so no more.

I was a bit saddened by your ending. It seemed a bit heavy handed after such a fine attempt to try to blend in some much appreciated fine tuning. Course you softened it with giving yourself as an example and I appreciated that. May you take Madden to whatever level you enjoy.

Of course, we all, always, have a choice to learn and push the envelope or to quit and stay within our comfort zone. The fine line between what we enjoy and find “fun” and what is exasperating and feels like work differs as a subjective call. The Civ producers addressed this admirably in aiming for a more fun less microdetailed obsessional game in Civ 4. I admire that. Are we goin backwards?

I am a retired gaming community business executive and thus have enjoyed thousands and thousands of hours of Civ over the years. The Civ community is an amazing conglomeration of super talented people showing copious amount of dedication and yes, I will say it, love for this, their focus game. Everythings from debates on ICS to what constitutes exploits. I, too, want that to continue. I am gonna go back to the drawin boards for the umpteenth time again and question myself as to every gaming assumption I make as I choose it to see if truly the AI hasn’t been bolted down way too tight with no learning middle ground levels. And while I set off on that path still dubious, I shall renew that iterative learning process that, at least for the moment, eludes me and others here in my community (whom I consider experts at the game.) Thanks for listening and your efforts in responding.

**Dis** · March 13, 2007, 03:03

I thought I had run into a wall, but I think I have adapted to the level I play at now. It isn't easy though. I have to keep on my toes. Which isn't always fun, but neither is utter domination of the AI. You really do have to adapt new strategies at the higher level. It doesn't seem right, but in a way, it makes sense.

When you play with friends, do you team up? If you are competing with each other that is the real competition, not the ai. So you could play a lower level and just ignore the ai. Or use them as a tool to be exploited by human players.

as for diplomacy, sometimes they just attack you because you are weak, and are an easy target. sucks sometimes (or most of the times)

That being said, I do sometimes wish there was less of a performance gap between difficulty levels. Perhaps we need more difficulty levels.

. Something in between noble and prince. maybe another one in between warlord and noble.

**snoopy369** · March 13, 2007, 04:50

Originally posted by Saygame
But I recently, in an attempt to analyze my play, watched three of my AI opponents (two financial) leapfrog over me and skyrocket in one turn 200 GP/turn. I went from First to Ninth in one turn with no way to recover. My theory is they simultaneously hit Printing Press
but 200??? Never encountered that before the new AI.

Well, one of the Blake AI changes is a much better treatment of 'emphasize gold' and 'emphasize hammers' and such, coupled with much more developed AI personalities and strategies. You may have encountered a group of AIs who went from "Growth" or "Production" strategies into "Tech" strategy, and thus changed a huge number of citizens working hammer-heavy plots to working cottages and gold mines. If it's reasonably late in the game (say, industrial era or further) that's not unreasonable to imagine.

That sort of shift I usually expect in the mid game, right around entering the Industrial era, in Prince level games. The AI reaches the point where it can't grow out any more, and it doesn't have any really good military options since you're presumably fairly powerful militarily, so those AIs who aren't on a war footing suddenly shoot up in research. The AI can and will outresearch you, always, if it chooses to try.

At that point, just make sure you've kept up in the areas that are important... Remember, if the AI is beating you with its towns, you can always take those towns away as long as you have equal military technology, and you use your human brain to win. Stacks of (5 cavalry)+(5 riflemen)+(3 grenadiers)+(3 cannons) are very effective at pillaging, as the whole stack moves one tile per turn, and the 5 cavalry pillage with their other move, removing a town entirely from the map, while still remaining fairly safe from attack. Even if (when) you lose the stack eventually, you'll have removed a substantial part of the AI's ability to produce tech, and so long as you remain able to defend your own territory (which you should be able to except against an AI who will beat you anyway) you should be fine yourself.

The way to combat that from my experience (and it sounds like you've read more strategy guides than I, so maybe this isn't useful) is a combination of cottage spamming, selective wars, making sure you have plenty of room by eliminating and/or choking nearby AIs in the early game, trading resources to AIs for gpt, researching techs the AI wants but doesn't research itself, and using GPs to generate income (Scientists, Priests, and Merchants).

Also, be aware of your own biases in gameplay. You might be someone like myself who gains a lot from Financial - ie, cottages everywhere, and lots of cities. Or you might gain more from Organized - very expensive civics, ie Vasselage +Organized Religion+Representation+Caste System.

I'd strongly encourage you to try Blake's AI (current version) if you're not already. It's so much better than the 2.08 AI it's not even funny; you'll find Noble to be pretty darn hard, at least until the modern era where human military tactics are still far superior.

As another option, if there is one element that is excessively bothering you about the AI - for some people, the AI builds too many units, and at a level of difficulty that is otherwise the right challenge for them, the AI overwhelms them with power; for others, the AI outtechs them consistently at the level where they can just handle the military side of things. If there is something like that, you could always mod the XML files to adjust the AI handicaps - I forget the exact file, but it's something like Civ4HandicapInfos.xml, and I am fairly sure it's in the Civ4GameInfo folder.

**snoopy369** · March 13, 2007, 04:52

I'm quite happy to hear that there is a community of Civ players in Albuquerque, by the way. I grew up in Las Cruces and Alamogordo, though I live in Chicago now. Spent last weekend in ABQ/Santa Fe, in fact

**snoopy369** · March 13, 2007, 04:58

Originally posted by Dis
I thought I had run into a wall, but I think I have adapted to the level I play at now. It isn't easy though. I have to keep on my toes. Which isn't always fun, but neither is utter domination of the AI. You really do have to adapt new strategies at the higher level. It doesn't seem right, but in a way, it makes sense.

When you play with friends, do you team up? If you are competing with each other that is the real competition, not the ai. So you could play a lower level and just ignore the ai. Or use them as a tool to be exploited by human players.

AI in a multiplayer game are pretty unbalancing, unfortunately. They tend to be easily exploited. Even in "Always War" games they still can be prodded into doing things at the humans' behest...

I'd recommend playing in the Saturday Night MP games ("RAH's saturday night game" in the MP forum). There's a lot to be learned there. Also, many of the players are either retired or nearing that age, so the maturity level is somewhat... higher than the normal MP game

[q="Dis"]
as for diplomacy, sometimes they just attack you because you are weak, and are an easy target. sucks sometimes (or most of the times)

That being said, I do sometimes wish there was less of a performance gap between difficulty levels. Perhaps we need more difficulty levels.

. Something in between noble and prince. maybe another one in between warlord and noble. [/q]

Well, you could always work that out yourself of course. I think there's not really that much of a gap, but what there is, is a point above which the AI has the tools to effectively perform in the early game, and thus become very powerful in the later game. Noble AIs usually lose to humans in the early game, and if they survive they still aren't ahead by enough when they get to their teching point. The player has such an advantage at that point that the AI can't catch up, and loses as sure as the day is long.
However, on Prince, the AI is able to keep up, and so passes the player. In most of my Prince games this happens; in the winning ones, I catch back up and surpass the AI once the modern age hits. I'm not sure there's that much room between the two, but again you can go to civ4handicapinfos.xml and edit it if you want to try

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