Catherine & Warlords

[Uncle_Woody]

I just got the expansion. I was quite disappointed that Catherine no longer has financial (changed to Imperialistic). That was a perfect combo for my playing style.

What new leader do you recommend for those who used to play as Catherine (or is she still a good choice)?

Also, was it my imaginiation when I test played my first map, or did the AI expand in my general area much faster than before? Is there a good starting strategy anyone can recommend for Warlords posted anywhere?

Thanks

[ben04]

The AI strength strongly depends on the patch version you have. Blake and Iustus have been moding the AI and a few of their modifications have been merged into the latest warlord patch. If you want an even better AI get the newest version of the mod. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=159157

As for Catherine yes it's pretty bad. She has lost both of their strengths : the financial trait and her 18 point Cossacks (now only 15 points).

I havn't really found any replacement as she actually was quiet overpowered. You could try one of the English queens or Musa. However you will not have the Creative trait. In Warlords Huana Capac has also become quiet a good choice. As UB he has a granary which provides culture. This could be an acceptable replacement for the Creative trait. However his UU is nothing in comparison with vanilla Cossacks

If you want to expand then Augustus Ceasar or Shaka are good choices. However they differ in playing style from vanilla Catherine .

[Tattila the Hun]

Vanilla? I figured her for a bit rougher type...

[popejubal]

Originally posted by ben04
If you want to expand then Augustus Ceasar or Shaka are good choices. However they differ in playing style from vanilla Catherine .

Augustus Caesar is very hard to play. After you develop (or pop from a hut if you're insanely lucky) Iron Working, you'll be building Praetorians. Once you have Praetorians, you'll be conquoring anyone you feel like, including Protective Civs.

This leads to a significant problem. Your empire can collapse from being too large too early. Without a shrine to support it, Currency to support it and Code of Laws to keep the upkeep down, you'll collapse under your own weight.

The key is to not conquor too much. It's difficult, but possible. Just remember to cottage everytihng you can to pay for the maintenance and don't worry about your science level dropping too low since you can always bring it back after you've built courthouses... as long as you get to the point where you can build courthouses.

[One_more_turn]

Augustus Caesar is too easy: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=157001

My record for the earliest Domination victory is 1244AD, with Augustus Caesar.

The key is to live off gold plundered from your conquest until you pop-rushed courthouses in most cities.

[Blake]

Catherine does have strength - she's the fasted expanding leader in the game!

The key is using Imperialistic to pop out settlers QUICKLY and then using creative to claim the BEST sites, you can be first to the best sites, lock them down with ease and then work on winning from there . Usually with imperialistic the problem is that you can't really afford the city spam, but by being picky about city sites (the luxury of creative) you can be running more profitable cities.

IMO she's probably the best imperialistic leader (or most interesting anyway), although there are many better Creative leaders - in fact nearly all of them... (Creative is OVERPOWERED! So of course Catherine is the best imperialistic leader, lol!)

[couerdelion]

Going back to the original question, I think the question depends on what it was that you used Catherine for. If the bulk of this was a sort of “lazy” builder/expansion (you don’t have to do a lot to get Financial and Creative to work then I would probably go for Huayna Capac (Financial/Industrious).

He’s got the financial bonus – which takes a little effort for non-financial civs to replicate and Pottery also gives him his terrace for growth and culture.

What’s more, if you are a builder type then you will quite like to have cheap forges and bonuses on wonder production. Industrious is not my favourite trait – were it not for Protective it would be my least, I think – but can be a nice bonus for builders.

And HC also has the easiest time dealing with barbarians in the early post-window world.

I think my next game will be with Huayna or Catherine.

[One_more_turn]

Huayna Capac is also dangerous in AI's hand, he always opens up big lead in techs and wonders, that's why I always go after him whenever possible.

[couerdelion]

Here’s my thoughts on using Catherine. Her game does change quite a bit in Warlords because there is the natural tendency to aggressive expansion that her Imperialist trait supports but I would think this to be a good lesson for the builder types.

Starting techs are nice enough and open up all the ancient happy resources. The lack of any religious tendency is not necessarily a problem with regards to pushing out the happiness cap. Food does need a little work so the Agriculture/Fishing/Animal Husbandry will come in quite early.

I think the first thing to do is to set an early goal. With Cathy I think this is to find Bronze and link to it. For this we need to build a settler and a worker and research Bronzeworking and Wheel.

But we should also probably take a few turns to build a scout first. Not only do these pay for themselves with hut discoveries alone (except perhaps at Deity level where the AI scouts are too quick out of the block) but they give you fast information on where your second city should go – your settler will be built in super-fast time so you need an extra scout to help. On the scout thing, a game I started yesterday (Emperor level) had my scouts finding over 400g from huts.

With Cathy – any IMP civ – you also want to seriously look at founding the city on a bonus tile (Ivory, Marble, Stone or just plains hill). This will knock several turns out of the settler/scout build times. As for how the settler is built, there are several options. If food is low, it may be best to build the settler from size 1, but I would recommend growth to size 2 first – building a warrior for a little security while growing and then whipping the settler after Bronze Working is discovered. Hopefully, your scouts will have found out where the second city will go and the scouts also make half decent escorts to protect against animals.

If you are going to found near copper then all you need now are a couple of workers and Wheel technology. What’s more you will also know about your local neighbours so will be able to decide whether or not expansion from here will be at the expense of another civ or using the high production mine tile to get another settler out very quickly.

Without copper you might also look to go immediately on to Animal Husbandry (with this in mind you might have founded a second city near pigs/sheep/cows). Not only will this also show you another military resource (to make borders secure and providing tools for an early rush) but horses too will also give another high production site to help speed out those settlers in any land-grabbing phase.

Going forward from here the next step is likely to be to complete the basic worker techs (Agro, Pottery and perhaps Masonry and Fishing) before aiming for Writing, Currency, Code of Laws to control the costs of your growing empire. Without Copper or Horses, you will also need Archery for basic defense.

Other things to remember with IMP civs: Change your tile works when building a settler. Consider loading up with food first and then build the settler with deficit food while working the mines. Plains hill city working three mines (one plains hill) will generate 18hpt for the settler (=6 turns) and -2 food. And if you have food, the settlers whip very cheaply.

[ben04]

(Creative is OVERPOWERED! So of course Catherine is the best imperialistic leader, lol!)

Completely agree. Especially now that you get cheap libraries with it!

In post ancient starts you can consider Huayna to be Creative. Cities are founded with a granary prebuild and as his granaries give him culture every city has some base culture. So basically Huayna is Creative/Financial/Industrious.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by ben04

Completely agree. Especially now that you get cheap libraries with it!

It's one reason why I don't want to get the latest patch.

[couerdelion]

Having looked at things a little more closely, I think Huayna Capac is a very interest case to look at but I think it needs to be recognised just how important the Ancient Era is to him and how flexible he can be in dealing with it.

These are just some of his options

1) Religion

Starting with Mysticism he can go for one of the early religions. At higher levels the happiness bonus from this will be important though, naturally, it’s harder to get religion this way

2) Wonders

With the Industrious trait he can take a serious look at some of the early wonders netting him some early GPs. Specifically, with Mysticism he can consider Stonehenge as a cheap way of getting the Prophet to build a shrine for the religion. The combined religion/henge strategy will also make him semi-creative and the capital will be a cultural powerhouse forever perhaps even netting you a couple of free early cities from cultural assimilation.

Other wonders will work also and if resources are there are worth a punt. Don’t forget also that with a +150% bonus, a long-shot wonder can also be a cheap way of generating cash.

3) Barb killer/Ultra early rush

Huayna still has his Inca Warriors and with their bonus against archer units are resistant to barb attacks and can mount a credible early rush without copper. Note, however that this is a different strategy to the two above and it will be hard to combine the two

4) Go for gold/culture

Huayna is two techs away from his Unique Building which gives an extra culture boost to cities. This tech also gives cottages which the financial trait just loves.

Overall, HC is a fun civ to play with and has lots of options. I think he is probably the one civ whose ancient era is more important than that for any other civ and I would not play him like Cathy in vanilla CIV. My default would be to go for religion and probably add on the Stonehenge wonder (Polytheism/Mining/Bronze) but of course this would depend a lot on terrain.

[rah]

The incas are probably the main reason he have started playing random civs in MP games. The last game where we didn't play random, 5 of the 8 players chose the INCANS. You do have a lot of options at the start of the game.

[Ming]

Until they nuffed Cathy in warlords (lossing financial was really big), she was my favorite civ. Now, the Incas are the civ I pray for when we are playing random starts.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by rah
The incas are probably the main reason he have started playing random civs in MP games. The last game where we didn't play random, 5 of the 8 players chose the INCANS. You do have a lot of options at the start of the game.

Simple solution: have a ground rule where No one can be Inca.