Slow to get tech - why

[michael512]

I'm relatively new to Civ, got it from my kids at xmas. I've been reading the forums and trying out some of whats been discussed.

I don't understand what's going wrong. My last game:
Leader Asoka
Warlord level
Terra, standard climate and sealevel
just ok location (better than tundra/desert I usually get)

So I limit myself to 4 cities to avoid the maintenance penalty and move quickly to found religions. Get Hindu, Judism, Christian and get the founding temples for each, go quickly to alphabet for tech trading.

So here's my problem, I'm just getting Rifling when all the AI's are finishing the Apollo program!! I'm getting lots of golds but no tech.

Suggestions?

[Quillan]

The most likely cause is that you aren't generating enough commerce or haven't configured your cities to maximize your research capability. Commerce is the lifeblood that drives your empire, no matter how big or small. You use it to generate base research as well as money, and potentially culture as well. Cottages generate commerce, and more as they gradually improve into hamlets then villages then towns. Some squares generate commerce naturally, but rarely as much as a town will.

Further, the base commerce generated gets modified by all the various structures you can build. Also, some civic choices have an impact; Free Speech causes towns to generate 2 extra commerce each, and Free Religion gives you a 10% increase in the research of each city.

If you only have 4 cities, you really need to configure yourself in some manner to generate tons of research, whether that is by going for heavy commerce or going for heavy food production and using lots of specialists. Most likely the fact that you only have 4 cities generating small to middling amounts of research has the various AIs generating far more than you do.

[DrSpike]

Cottages.

[kiky]

Re: Slow to get tech - why

Originally posted by michael512
So here's my problem, I'm just getting Rifling when all the AI's are finishing the Apollo program!! I'm getting lots of golds but no tech.

Suggestions?

Did you get lots of gold per turn? if it is then seems that you are running low on research. Try to run at higher research, 100% if you can.
If you have enough gold reserves, you can run at deficit gold per turn.

[Addled Platypus]

trade for techs (gold)

[frenzyfol]

Over expanding? That was my problem comming from civ 2 to civ 4. Each new city costs more upkeep.
Minimize upkeep by building courthouses and growing cottages

[Blake]

The secret to fast tech is that there is no such thing as over-expanding... the more you expand, the faster you research. There's just a bit of a hump to get over before the research fully kicks in (that hump being upkeeps). Asoka however can pretty much ignore upkeeps, he is Organized so they are lower and he gets cheap courthouses, plus he is spiritual+mysticism which means you can easily get some religions and shrines, spreading the religion to all your cities then gives you plenty of income.
If you build the Great Lighthouse (and there's water around) then you can pretty much expand with impunity.

The bigger you are, the faster you research.

Note there are a few critical techs for getting over the hump (being at 0% science and not having these is VERY BAD):
Bronze Working, to whip unproductive population into infrastructure and workers.
Pottery, for Cottages.
Writing for libraries, allowing you to run scientists.
With those 3 cheap techs you can drag yourself out of any tech hole.

Additionally:
Code of Laws for courthouses, especially useful for Organized leaders.
Currency for Marketplaces and additional trade routes.

Once you have those two techs and associated infrastructure you should be able to expand infinitely, with the research rate at least not getting worse.

For "Large empire research" the later techs you want to aim for are Banking and Communism. An Organized leader running State Property with a shrine or two can typically run 90%-100% science all the time, REGARDLESS of empire size, with twice as many cities you research twice as fast... four times the city, four times as fast...

Bigger is Better.

[couerdelion]

Also Markets for Merchants if gold is low

[Tanned]

If you have a poor start and the AI has a good start, then, other things held equal and taking into consideration difficulty level modifiers, your only way to salvage a win is through warfare.

Had a recent game where my neighbour Cyrus started surrounded by flood plains while my London was surrounded by plains and a few hills. It was impossible to get anywhere near the AI's level of research.

[ben04]

Originally posted by Blake
The secret to fast tech is that there is no such thing as over-expanding... the more you expand, the faster you research.

I see what you mean but I disagree. You are correct in the sense that the more developed cites the better, however you mustn't expand faster than you can develop.

For each city you need at least one worker and someone to guard it. If you can't provide this in the near future then that city is simply too much, no matter how good the site is.

[Blake]

I often expand constantly, all game long almost. Starting by aggressively grabbing the good sites then founding more marginal cities as the mature cities can cover the costs.
It is possible to expand too quickly - but it isn't possible to expand too much.

And I've rarely managed to expand too quickly either, in fact the only game I've expanded too quickly in was Realms Beyond Epic 5 (I think) which was Aztec with the Variant of no researching Fishing - without fishing I couldn't get coast income and suddenly my economy went irreversibly negative - like even with maximized commerce everywhere I was at -17gpt (usually I'd just work enough coast to get back in the black)
A link to my report for that game if you want to find out how I got out of that tight spot...

[ben04]

Originally posted by Blake
I often expand constantly, all game long almost. Starting by aggressively grabbing the good sites then founding more marginal cities as the mature cities can cover the costs.
It is possible to expand too quickly - but it isn't possible to expand too much.

Ok, "expand too much at a certain point of time" = "expand too quickly" so we actually are of the same opinion.

[michael512]

Treasury vs Research

Thanks for all the good input.

In general I usually end up with tons of gold in the treasury. But from what I think I'm getting is that the golds being generated should then be used to boost research through the % assignments.

Am I on the right track? Generate lots of commerce(golds) but use it for research vs padding the treasury.

One more question: can you build too many cottages? What's the right mix cottages vs farms?

Thanks

[joncnunn]

Yes you can build too many cottages; for instance if you completely block what would be a needed irrigation path with a wall of cottages.
Also, if you build so many cottages in lieu of farms that your city can't work all the tiles under it's control. (Assuming sufficent happiness to do so) This is particularly an issue pre tech that allows wind mills.

[DrSpike]

You just need enough farms to get decent growth and work hills where appropriate. Then cottage.