Vassal State

[PValiant]

So i started a war with my computer neighbor and i started beating him back. He came asking for peace, but would not be my vassal state. So i kept with my war. And i tried every turn to see if he would finally become my vassal. But then he becomes another empires vassal state one that wasnt even fighting them. I think this is wrong i think you should only become a vassal state with one you are at war with and if at war you can only do that or get a military alliance with another race. Anyway it has messed with my game. Anyone else have this problem?

[Jaybe]

You can consider that it has "messed" with your game, or you can consider that politics have gotten a bit more volatile (which is good)!

It isn't a problem in my book. Sure, it has happened to me but it is an enhancement to the game, not a detriment. Predictability in the game would be bad.

[PValiant]

Well it has happen to me twice now with 2 neighbors. And its not predictable it is war. If i cant make military alliances while at war withsomeone else then why can they become someone elses vassal state in the middle of a war?

[dregor]

They're giving up their autonomy for the benefit of their protection... seems ok to me. If someone was beating up on you, would you rather capitulate to them and become their lackey, or throw your lot in with another force with the hope of being able to get revenge on the person who terrorized you?

[SandMonkey]

Plus, if you're at peace with someone when you become their vassal, you can break that agreement later. If you capitulate to them, you're stuck as their vassal for the entire game.

[greenday_234]

I see this kind of stuff happen in my games all the time. Along with this issue I've also faced the problem of so many vassal states in a game that it is impossible to wage war without declaring war on 50 other coutries
I think Vassal States was a great concept that didn't work in reality at least not without some major readjustments.

[CreepyD]

One game shortly after 1 opponent became my vassal after a war with them, 2 other opponents suddenly became my vassal's out of nowhere.
one was across the other side of the map and I had had no direct contact at all. They were pretty big - I couldn't have conquered them.
What happened I have no idea but it helped me win a conquest victory

I prefer the new politics, it's all a bit more volatile and unpredictable, makes it more fun.

[sparkyal]

The vassal situation you described sounds normal. It's happened to me as well. It has simply mean thtta I had to fight two enemies instead of 1 (of course that happened pre-blake so it was a lot easier).

Not to highjack too much, but have you all notivced that once you have a vassal you can't get huge amounts of gold out of him? that was the one really big benifit of having a vassal.

sparky

[eris]

This is not a bug. It is a feature.

It can really mess up your evil plans to conquer the world if one of your victims sells their soul, politically speaking, to some third party. It is a designed-in method (with tenuous real world parallels) for making conquest harder as you go along instead of easier and easier.

In my present game, I had two capitulated vassals and one voluntary vassal who had just left my "protection". I figured some pounding would give me a few of their better cities and then a full capitulation. Instead, Louis XIV sold himself to Bismark and it became world war, since Bismark had been collecting voluntary vassals for a while. In fact, it was a full world war, with their five nations against my three nations. I figured I was had. I even tried reloading the previous turn to see if there was anything I could have done diplomatically to change things. Nope. Back to world war. So I resigned myself to a big beating. Instead of beating on me, they took out one of my vassals completely, different civs taking different cities. I kept the invasion of Louis XIV going on my rear boundaries while fending off stacks that started to trickle in after my vassal Alexander got the shaft.

I have never moved units around quite so desperately. I have never had this much fun in battle, sweating out each battle and swearing at my one Great General Cavalry unit needing to heal back from 0.6 hit points. (That takes a while, even with medics handy!) I endured some serious pillaging, faced one stack with 20 Cannons and their continuing resupply of Musket defenders for the stack so I couldn't quite get to the Cannons, and lost a bunch of units, but I held until I could move from Cavalry offense units to Tanks and make a couple of Civics changes. Now, I am beginning to push back against Bismark. Saladin opted out of being Bismark's vassal and made peace with me. I may actually get away with this!

That's why they made the Vassals the way they did, so people like you and I could complain about "unfair" events and then figure out how to overcome those events. We all have different definitions for "unfair", and we certainly have different methods of overcoming the unfair events life and Civ throw at us. But, in both cases, overcoming challenges is what makes it all worthwhile.

Enjoy.

[jbp26]

Originally posted by eris
It can really mess up your evil plans to conquer the world if one of your victims sells their soul, politically speaking, to some third party. It is a designed-in method (with tenuous real world parallels) for making conquest harder as you go along instead of easier and easier.

without vassals, the game is pretty much won once you have absorbed another nation or two. its just a matter of grinding out units for a few hours until you win.

[Lambiorix_be]

Originally posted by eris
This is not a bug. It is a feature.
Enjoy.

And a good feature it is. When during a war my opponent becomes a vasal of another empire I still try to conquer as much of his cities (perferably every last one if his new protector is not too strong) out of spite for his treason of not wanting to be crushed by me

It wouldn't be uncommon either that I could only hold conquered territory because of a big protector. I don't like it but something it is better to hold back then let other empires gain from a war between the biggest powers....but I never forget and if they ever decide to become independent again I crush them like bugs for my old humiliating defeat ...it's an ego thing

[PValiant]

But if they can go become someones vassal state then i should be allowed to make military defense pacts during war time. So that if they do become someones vassal i can have an ally myself who will declare ware on the other 2 empires.

[MasterDave]

There could be a simpler solution. Do you have Fuedalism yet? I remember one of my very first warlords sp games I wanted to get a vassal so I beat a neighbor down and down and down and was frustrated by his non-capitulation.

I realized later that I had completely bypassed learning Feudalism, which is a prereq for one becoming or leading a vassal state.

[patcon]

PV, what was your status vis-a-vis the civ who accepted your foe as a vassal? Were at peace with them? Did you immediately enter a state of peace with your former foe and have your forces removed, did you continue at war and now with the new master as well, or were you given an option?

I ask because when this has happened to me, peace was immediately declared (against my wishes) but I was able to immediately re-declare war againt my enemy.

[sparkyal]

MasterDAve....ah!!!!!!! Now i know why in my current game I couldn't get the Mali to be my vassal! thanks!

PV, i really do like the feature, or bug as you described it. sorry to disagree. I feel like it adds more risk in war and since as a human we can fight and beat a an AI CIV with only 1/3 the fighting force, that's probably pretty fair.

That being said, I understand what you mean about defensive packs. but, couldn't you get someone to declare war on the nation that you are fighting?

and what about "offensive packs". Like the Axis powers or something along those lines? That would be pretty cool. Here is the Negotiation dialog......"Ok monty, you're insane and want to attack everyone anyway, so why don't we team up and take over the world together?" Or, if we want to make the UN useful (something it is not in real life) we could have people vote to declare war on someone...or embargoes...something with teeth.

sparky