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Early wonder basics?

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  • #16
    Early wonders for me tend to be opportunistic as I think it is for most people. But you should not underestimate their value in two areas

    1) They will start generating GPs

    Although you can probably do this all more quickly by building a library or some other specialist building, your wonders are your GP slow-cookers that leave you free to pursue other things while your GP is being born. Early GPP are extremely valuable

    2) Their basic benefit can be very valuable.

    A wonder like Great Lighthouse can be a real boost for a civ with lots of coast to expand to, particularly if you have open borders and trade links with neighbours. Even without the open borders, a civ with three coastal cities will see a boost of 6 commerce for the cost of 200 hammers. For comparison, here are some crude comparative figures

    Missionary (Cost 50 – Gain 1gpt)
    Courthouse in City with M.E. of 6gpt (Cost 120 – Gain 3gpt)
    Market in City with 20 commerce and 40% allocated to gold (Cost 150 – Gain 2gpt)

    In some later situations (Large Empire/Pacifist/Representation), a wonder like the Statue of Liberty is simply too good to pass on.

    Of course, early wonders also come at a time when expansion and improvements are also critical to the game so these will also have to be factored into the plan. But don’t leave the wonders too late or you will be beaten to them - the gold generated from a lost wonder race is nowhere near enough to compensate for losing the race and is a VERY poor use of production unless you happen to have the +100% resource bonus.

    As for the forests, if you are in a wonder race then chop them down.

    I don’t think I entirely agree with ben04 on the need for a gold mine in the capital. You can easily get the same level of commerce from a couple of villages. Having said that, achieving the CS sling is a lot deal easier if you have gold (or gems). I would, however, agree that boosting research is a better goal than boosting production simply because the +50% increases is a pre-multiplier commerce increases and this itself gets boosted by gold or science multipliers

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    • #17
      Building the Oracle in time is not the big obstacle to the CS Slingshot. The tech requirement is. It's virtually impossible to pull off now unless you start in a good spot with a Financial civ. Your best reasonable shot would probably be Elizabeth on a coast with a couple of seafood specials and a mix of forested and unforested hills. I've pulled it off a couple of times on Prince but I don't think I could on higher levels.

      Research path:

      Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Mathmatics -> Code of Laws -> Civil Service (via oracle)

      Build order:

      City 1: preferably founded on coastal plains hill

      worker preference:

      (food/hammer til worker done) -> (max commerce til writing) -> (hammer til library built) -> (max commerce plus 2 scientists til academy, then max commerce without scientists til CoL)

      worker (for mines) -> workboat x2 -> settler -> warriors til writing discovered -> library -> filler to slow down oracle build -> oracle (timed to complete with CoL discovery

      City 2+: warriors and settlers until there's something for workers to do besides build mines

      The reason I think Elizabeth is ideal is because she gets at least 3 commerce per til when focusing on research due to the coastal tiles without having to build anything and she's Philo so the academy comes twice as fast. The main obstacle is getting enough hammers to build the library ASAP. The second city helps with that by building a worker for mines.

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      • #18
        On a related note, I tried an OCC game on Prince recently that sort of surprised me. I think I was playing as Peter (Philo/Expansionist). I was amazed to start with both stone and marble 2 turns walk away so I moved my settler to found within range of both.

        I got the CS Slingshot easily and in fact managed to build ALL of the non coastal wonders (I wasn't coastal). Normally I would have skipped Stonehenge but I wanted maximum border expansion for resources.

        I'm tempted to try starting a normal (non OCC) game that way and then conquer cities instead of bothering with any settlers.

        It did make for a boring build que though:

        worker -> wonders til library -> wonders til all early wonders done -> normal buildings and a few military units -> repeat

        Great Wall eliminated the need to defend against barbs.

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        • #19
          I generally try to let my city grow a bit before I build any workers or settlers. I usaually produce my first settler around 2000-1700BC, and then expand quickly, and level off at 40 or 50% science. If my barracks is compleated before I have expanded to take advantage of all 3 food+production squares, I will start building wonders. Though I usaually go for Stonehenge (unless I am creative leader but for some reason I seldomly draw those) and not the Oracle. Personally I'm not a big fan of the Oracle, unless you beeline to it and nab Hereditary Rule it's just not worth it in my opinion, and as much as I like Hereditary Rule, it's just not the best way to go, unless there are less than 9 civs.

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          • #20
            I'm playing prince, and I do seem to manage the CS slingshot more often than not, even when not playing financial. As said, building the Oracle is normally not the problem, but rather getting both Civil Service and Mathematics on time is the key.

            I don't have any exactly pretermined bee-line or build queue, but it depends. Generally, though, I'll get to Pottery first, Bronze Working second, then Literacy. After that I may grab some needed worker techs, before heading to Priesthood. Usually I research CS before Maths, so that if I get the feeling, that I won't be able to get Maths in time, I'll grab Philosophy instead.

            As for the build queue, I normally start with either worker first, or if I'm coastal with some seafood in sight (and have Fishing) workboat first. Granary will be on the list as soon as the worker is finished and Pottery available...sometimes it is possible to finnish the Granary with a whip (when starting with Mining). After the Granary, Library is normally on as soon as Literacy is available, then one settler and some defence until it is time for he Oracle. It also makes sense to assign the two scientists at some point to get the academy (helps a lot for grabbing both CS and Maths in time).

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            • #21
              Originally posted by khumak
              On a related note, I tried an OCC game on Prince recently that sort of surprised me. I think I was playing as Peter (Philo/Expansionist). I was amazed to start with both stone and marble 2 turns walk away so I moved my settler to found within range of both.

              I got the CS Slingshot easily and in fact managed to build ALL of the non coastal wonders (I wasn't coastal). Normally I would have skipped Stonehenge but I wanted maximum border expansion for resources.

              I'm tempted to try starting a normal (non OCC) game that way and then conquer cities instead of bothering with any settlers.

              It did make for a boring build que though:

              worker -> wonders til library -> wonders til all early wonders done -> normal buildings and a few military units -> repeat

              Great Wall eliminated the need to defend against barbs.
              That start is almost like having a pre-emptive hand in bridge. Not somehting you plan on, but possible enough that you should have a good plan in place if it happens.

              Even with just stone or marble alone on prince you should be able to nab Pyramids, Great Wall, the Oracle and the Great Library with some luck. Solid start with gobs of good GPP coming from wonders.
              Got my new computer!!!!

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              • #22
                I'm playing with the "Better AI" Blake mod so what I post might not apply in normal games, but the AI in it seem to have made The Great Wall a priority (with early stone access) so unless you have Stone very close by, don't count on getting the Great Wall.
                1st C3DG Term 7 Science Advisor 1st C3DG Term 8 Domestic Minister
                Templar Science Minister
                AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now.

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                • #23
                  I bee-line Stonehenge every map, every Civ, researching to Bronzeworking and Mysticism as necessary. Typically this means a build queue of:
                  1. Warrior
                  2. Worker
                  3. Settler
                  4. Stonehenge

                  Chop-rushing or pausing for growth depending on resources.

                  The value of Stonehenge, to me, is
                  a) Fat-crosses come more quickly in all subsequently founded cities
                  b) My position on the map is known, helping me esp in mid-game finding other civs
                  c) First Great Person is a prophet, which I use/save to make the holy site for my state religion or giving me my own religion
                  For some the fairest thing on this dark earth is Thermopylae, and Spartan phalaxes low'ring lances to die -- Sappho

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                  • #24
                    I have played 4 games on Emperor recently, and ben competitive. Each time I have built the pyramids, and I play Greeks (philo,Agg). This has been done without access to stone, with a settler, several units and several workers built first. So even up to Emperor level, a dedicated effort to choosing a good hammer spot and then building the pyramids is possible almost always.

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