How do I get out of this mess?

[Brundlefly]

Playing a monarch game as Russians, I've had to spend most of my time fighting the neighboring Aztecs whose culture spread has encroached on my lands and whose attitude has been furious towards me most of the game.. This concentration on war delayed my infrastructure build and caused me to fall far behind in technology from another civ on my continent, the Incans. The Incans have been annoyed/furious towards me the whole game.. So I finally get Aztecs to capitulate, when the Incans sign on the final occupant of the continent, the English (whom I had beat into a 3rd world country early game), as vassals and declare war on me next turn. The Incans have Tank/Artillery/Infantry and I have Rifleman/Cossacks. Should I throw in the towel at this point? How could I have prevented this confrontation with the Incans (or at least delayed it)?

[senowen]

i doubt you can extricate yourself from this situation. Those tanks are going to roll over your riflemen. Unless you have a huge military and are going to get infantry soon, I don't think you have a chance.
I imagine te Incans are annoyed/furious with you mostly because you are weaker than them, yet you refused to comply with any of their demands. Knowing that you are behind technologically, and therefore probably militarily, you should have done what ever they asked, given them stuff they didn't ask for and basically kiss their asses. Maybe you could have avoided war in that manner. But you would have had to have begun kissing their asses early in the game.

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by senowen
i doubt you can extricate yourself from this situation. Those tanks are going to roll over your riflemen. Unless you have a huge military and are going to get infantry soon, I don't think you have a chance.
I imagine te Incans are annoyed/furious with you mostly because you are weaker than them, yet you refused to comply with any of their demands. Knowing that you are behind technologically, and therefore probably militarily, you should have done what ever they asked, given them stuff they didn't ask for and basically kiss their asses. Maybe you could have avoided war in that manner. But you would have had to have begun kissing their asses early in the game.

What is the best way to keep them happy.. gifts? what kind of gifts? use their favorite civic?

[rah]

Share their religion and adopting their favorite civic are certainly useful. But it seems that at some point it doesn't matter if you're at +11 or -11, when it's time it's time.
Note: having more units then them will sometimes keep them from declaring war on you.

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by rah
Share their religion and adopting their favorite civic are certainly useful. But it seems that at some point it doesn't matter if you're at +11 or -11, when it's time it's time.
Note: having more units then them will sometimes keep them from declaring war on you.

I guess when you notice any unfriendly neighboring civ getting 3 to 4 techs ahead of you, you should either do whatever is necessary to keep the tech gap from getting bigger, or, if thats not possible, you should start appeasing them.

[senowen]

Originally posted by Brundlefly
I guess when you notice any unfriendly neighboring civ getting 3 to 4 techs ahead of you, you should either do whatever is necessary to keep the tech gap from getting bigger, or, if thats not possible, you should start appeasing them.

Sounds about right to me.

Rah is right, if you are too far behind eventually they will attack. Wouldn't you do the same to them?

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by senowen


Sounds about right to me.

Rah is right, if you are too far behind eventually they will attack. Wouldn't you do the same to them?

Only if they have a resource I need..

[senowen]

Originally posted by Brundlefly

Only if they have a resource I need..

Well, they always have a resource you need; i.e. land, cities, population. Even if they don't have any special resources you need, chances are they have some that someone else needs, which you can trade for something you do need, or just sell for cash.

[rah]

And smacking the big dog a bit never hurts. It slows them down which really speeds you up if you do it to all of them Go to demos. See top five cities. Destroy/take any city on the list that is not yours. THat will slow the buggers down. Repeat till victory.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by senowen


Sounds about right to me.

Rah is right, if you are too far behind eventually they will attack. Wouldn't you do the same to them?

why? once I pull far enough ahead of an AI civ I figure they are more useful as non threatening trade partners and diplomatic stooges than as enemies.

I would think it would make sense to attack only for strategic/economic considerations, or for diplomatic considerations, or rarely because attacking will allow victory over an enemy that would otherwise become undefeatable. In general however, I wouldn't think the relative strength of an enemy would serve as a reason to go to war, except in the sense that an obviously stronger civ that will likely defeat you will be unwise to attack for almost any reason at all.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by rah
And smacking the big dog a bit never hurts. It slows them down which really speeds you up if you do it to all of them Go to demos. See top five cities. Destroy/take any city on the list that is not yours. THat will slow the buggers down. Repeat till victory.

but if you play OCC won't the list always be populated with citys that are not yours even if they are pathetic little starving 1 population crapholes of squalor?

[senowen]

Well, they always have a resource you need; i.e. land, cities, population. Even if they don't have any special resources you need, chances are they have some that someone else needs, which you can trade for something you do need, or just sell for cash.

Of course, whether you attack always is dependent on an ultimate goal. If you are going for a cultural or space race victory, attacking an AI civ just because it is there often wouldn't make much sense. But, normally I need land and cities at least until middle part of the game. Assuming the nearby civs all have some useful resources and that I have a choice of nearby enemies (normally I don't because I'm surrounded by Isabella, Genghis and maybe Shaka or Monty) I'm going to take on the weakest enemy. It's easier, takes less troops, hence less money, hence its easier on the economy and allows the infrastructure build to continue.

[Tattila the Hun]

Whip cannons, kill invaders. Sue for peace.

[sjm]

Well it depends on how badly your military is faring at the moment whether you're screwed or not. But I doubt you really have too much to worry about, because...

You have one big advantage that the AI doesn't - you are (theoretically) an intelligent sentient being


Riflemen can beat tanks in cities (you have given them garrison, haven't you) with a high enough defensive bonus. You'll just need a lot of them, because they'll never withstand two attacks! Send all the available units to the front line and dig in. You might want to/need to drop back to the second line of cities if the border cities are newly conquered, and thus have measly defensive bonuses. But given that you've been at war for ages, I'm assuming you actually aren't that badly off from a military perspective - you'll have barracks, production cities, well promoted units etc.

Have medics in all front line cities!!!

Beeline for replaceable parts for infantry and see if you can't get together a cash surplus in order to upgrade your best riflemen as soon as you can. You might even be able to trade for it or demand it in tribute. Infantry in cities can eat AI tanks for breakfast, because the AI is crap at promoting units.

In the meantime, harass the AI. Pick off lone stragglers as they pillage. Whittle away the AI's attack force. Draft if you must. Build loads of units - especially cannons and city defenders, but you'll also want cossacks for sorties against stragglers. Use cannons (with barrage) against big stacks, weakening them until your cossacks have a decent chance, or if you must, let the AI retreat with them. At least you buy yourself time when the AI retreats, although ideally you want to inflict losses too.

You don't need to trounce the AI; just weaken its stacks enough, so that it is unable to take your cities. It'll then split up the stacks to pillage instead, making it much easier for you to pick units off 1 by 1. You should be able to stall the AI for quite a while, even with an inferior military.

At the same time, send out some of your cossacks to harass the enemy deep in its own territory. The AI will have to redirect some of its attack forces to mopping up in its own territory. If you can pillage their oil, do so!!!

You won't "win" this war - but you may well be able to stall the AI for long enough to get a stalemate. At some point the AI will sue for peace; or, if they don't, will shoot themselves in the foot by concentrating on their military for much too long, instead of on winning the game. This allows you to play catch-up in the meantime.

I've experienced similar situations myself; although generally from concentrating too much on infrastructure and too little on military. I'll be a couple of techs behind and have an army 1/3 of the size. But at most I'll lose 1 or 2 poor cities before turning the tide.

If there are any other civs out there, you might be able to entice them into attacking the Inca too. The Inca will then split their forces, and you'll have a much easier time


Oh, and whip away if you can !!!

[MrWhereItsAt]

Good suggestions from sjm there.

I've not been in this situation before, but I know what I would need to do. There WILL be losses, and what's more a lot of terrain improvements may get trashed too - you can't think too much about that. First thing is to start reorganising the troops you have to get into defensible positions - including protecting your necessary resources - which may include you abandoning some lesser cities. If you can, go to Nationhood/Slavery and draft/poprush as much as you can in those cities, so that when the AI does take them, they are all but useless to the new overlord, and you will have got a bigger defensive army for it, or at least will have made them fight harder to get into those towns.

Second is to change civics to the best for war and units, although consider carefully if you are within range of a tech that could help you, like Replaceable Parts. Also you should now be building things that will help you in your defensive goals. No point in finishing that Wonder if the AI will just likely take it from you sooner because you stuck with it. Cannons are definitely the way to go. If one of their stacks gets next to one of your cities with half a dozen cannons in there, you can collateral damage quite a few of them, causing them greater casualties in their battles than otherwise. They may still win the city, but it will cost them a lot more than it cost you - the classic Pyrrhic victory.

And finally, use your terrain to your advantage - they can't move as fast through it or heal as fast in it as your troops can. Also, if you can get a few raiders into enemy territory to pick off key roads and resources, or even just wipe out mines, farms and cottages, it hurts them. If you took down enough happiness resources, that combined with war weariness might cause them to be forced to end the war, or at least stop their ability to reinforce their heavy losses.

Good luck! If you stick with it, let us know what happens.