Anybody using forts?

[Chiss]

Hello everybody,

Once upon a time (Civ 1 and/or Civ2), there was the concept of 'zone of control', i.e. you could not just go around an enemy unit: you either attacked it or backed away (or stand still, I guess).

In those days, I would choose choke points on the map (typically where the land reduced to 2 or 3 squares) and would have a worker build a fort (or was it a fortress?) and I would stack units in it, confident that this would effectively block any incoming armies (or at least slow them down!).

I was quite surprised when, in Civ3, I again used that strategy only to see the marching armies of my ennemies just walk by! "What a useless thing this has now become!" I thought.

Now in Civ4, the option is still there for my workers, but where/when is this useful? Do you build those at all?

Chiss!

[zeace]

On Highland maps you will occasionally find a choke point that is a single tile wide. If it's on a hill with a forest, that fort makes even a lowly defender invincible. Sometimes it's even worth it to build 2 forts for 2 defenders if that blocks a choke point. On most regular maps choke points are rarely so narrow, so the fort is much less useful.

If you could build forts outside your cultural border (in neutral land, not obviously in other civs land) they would be far more useful. On a highland map with raging barbs a few choke points can hold dozens of barbs at bay. But before you can build a fort there you need to build a city nearby. And before you can build a city you need to get the barbs under control. In the end you build a huge army and never end up building the fort.

[Mr Justice]

i occasionally buildem.

but the only circumstance is when i click the wrong button by mistake.

[Harrier UK]

Never build them.

[Geronimo]

If they didn't replace a productive tile improvement they might have some limited value but as they have to be built in place of any possible improvements except roads/railroads and as they have to be built on your area of cultural control, they probably almost aways end up being totally useless.

In another thread however, someone mentioned that when choosing a path of attack it will always or at least usually prefer a path that allows it to take an unoccupied fort and that this can allow for directing any possible AI attack towards cities of your own choosing rather than leaving it entirely to chance.

[trumbo]

Forts are in the game?

[Kuciwalker]

On Highland maps you will occasionally find a choke point that is a single tile wide. If it's on a hill with a forest, that fort makes even a lowly defender invincible. Sometimes it's even worth it to build 2 forts for 2 defenders if that blocks a choke point. On most regular maps choke points are rarely so narrow, so the fort is much less useful.

There's no reason to cut the forest to build a fort: the bonus from the forest is just as good. Plus then you can have a Woodsman bonus apply.

[Harrier UK]

Originally posted by Geronimo
If they didn't replace a productive tile improvement they might have some limited value but as they have to be built in place of any possible improvements except roads/railroads and as they have to be built on your area of cultural control, they probably almost aways end up being totally useless.

Thats the reason I do not build them.

But then if the human player does not use them - so what, the AI does not either.

In all the games I have played, in Civ4 or Warlords I have never ever seen an AI fort.

Maybe this is a major bug and I should report it. But I guess after a year or so it probably already has been.

But then again, as they are a useless game feature why bother.

Apathy can be usefull - at times.

[frenzyfol]

It's a pity they are not more useful.
Forts were used extensively throughout the ages

[Chopper]

I want them too. Would be very handy against raging barbs. With zone of control would be even better. It would also be cool if barb cities could build forts outside culture border with ZOC and attack you as you are attempting to go past.

[rah]

Yes without ZOC, forts are minimized. Especially with warlords where the barbs or the AI won't attack strong defensive positions and just go around.

In all my games of CIV IV, I've never seen the ai build one and I've only built one. In hindsight that one didn't even really serve a purpose.

Yes, it's too bad that they have no real value except for the really rare occasion.

And yes I also did build one by hitting the wrong key but pillaged it after it appeared and I realized my mistake.

[Tattila the Hun]

I wonder, if one could mod an occupied fort to have a bombard ability, something like fighters and bombers have. Just at the adjacent tiles, and not too powerfull. Essentially a raiding party, streaks out and does some damage, and returns to the safety of the fort.

Or, if they would act as immobile units, not reguiring units to occupy them...

But, like said, if only one could build them on other improvements...

[SandMonkey]

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
I wonder, if one could mod an occupied fort to have a bombard ability, something like fighters and bombers have. Just at the adjacent tiles, and not too powerfull. Essentially a raiding party, streaks out and does some damage, and returns to the safety of the fort.

I had a similar thought, Tattila. Perhaps a percentage chance of "attacking" enemy units in an adjacent square. I would actually consider using these instead of improved tiles if they had this ability. Also, after gunpowder this is reasonable (historically) as it they could be fixed guns, like the Maginot line (completely ignoring the fact that those forts totally failed )

I could see lining a long border with forts in every third square to slow a potential invasion.

[Chiss]

Some good ideas here...

I didn't know you could not build them outside your borders! They are even more useless than I thought!

Some good ideas here, however... Here's some more:

->Forts should impose a zone of control, so while you could still walk around enemy units, you shouldn't be able to do the same around a fort (or at least, you should receive some damage from the units inside if you do).

->Definately, you should be able to build them outside your cultural border, but I guess you could loose them later on if the influence of a neighbor gets to your fort before yours... doh!

-> Historically, forts have been mini-cities...Maybe that's how they should be modelized...Mini-cities with limited "buildings/features" you can build, mostly defensive in nature. They've also been used to train/garrison military units...

Just some thoughts! Thanks all for your input, maybe this will be taken into consideration by the dev team!

Chiss!

[Chiss]

SandMonkey, I posted my last reply about 3 seconds after yours, looks like we are thinking along the same lines!