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Realistic Research?

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  • #16
    A lot of you touched on what I was thinking about. The idea is that the different technologies would be broken in to broad categories and you could focus research in a given area (perhaps give percents of your overall research to different areas of research).

    Things like music aren't really "research", but you can fund smart people to sit around and make music instead of having them do other things. So in a sense you can cultivate artists by providing schools to allow them to develop. You can also have random geniuses like Beethoven who are just so adept at it that they leaving lasting cultural impacts.

    I think Great People would generally give you a boost to your research. In a sense letting you roll the dice more to progress. I've always thought that people like Einstein don't necessarily fulfill their potential. What if they don't discover their talent? Or what if they work on something that ultimately proves worthless? To me research implies you're trying to figure something out that you don't know. And you might just blow a lot of resources and get no return.

    An example would be something like the Segway. Dean Kamen saw it as a way to revolutionize city design moving it back to a focus on pedestrians (or segway riders) and removing roads entirely. There would be massive cut backs in pollution and oil usage.

    What he ended up with was a novelty item, that's at best slightly better than a toy. No revolution in thing... not even any evolution really.

    It was a good idea, but ultimately even though the technology worked, it didn't take us in the direction he thought it would. In my mind it sits with a lot of promises of the late 1990s with refrigerators that would call out for food that would be redelivered before i knew I was running out, and appliances that would call out for repair all connected by the internet. Interesting ideas in theory, but as far as major appliances go, (at least to me) 2006 looks a lot like 1996 with a few cool gizmos added here and there. Computers and home recording technology are the only two areas I've noticed major advances in appliances.

    As for government research, the I know the U.S. government has a pretty large research budget. Agencies like DARPA and NASA have research as their primary mission. I know all of the Agencies under the Department of Defense as well as Department of Homeland security either have laboratories they run themselves or they fund universities and corporate contractors to do research. I imagine most governments would have at least a few areas they focus research funding into. A lot of research is private (drug research for instance), but the government generally funds research in critical areas.

    Another good point is that the further you go back in time, the less directed research you have. Perhaps before a certain age it can use a different system where you spontaneously discover certain technologies across the spectrum without any ability to direct research. As you approach modern times you could gain more control?

    Wow, this is more complicated than I thought

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    • #17
      But true research isn't blind, and has never been blind.
      It is.
      Only minor advances have been made by systematical data collection and application.

      And dont say that there's something that proves the opposite, even the development of information technologies doesn't as most of it consists of making concepts invented quite a time ago more effective, not applying new concepts.


      To name a few good examples, why most of our current technology is researched by the blind type of research:

      Fire
      Wheel
      Metal Casting
      Gunpowder

      ...(insert a LOT of important sudden discoveries here)

      Theory Of Relativity - most of the modern physics are based on the principles Einstein and his immediate followers stated, nothing radically new has been invented since then, most of the physicians are still busy with things like Theory of Gravity and Unified Field theory, where little progress is made since early 20th century, until another genius or few will make a leap forward.

      Transistors - while people have been researching in the subject for years, only with invention of a working transistor road was paved for modern computer science.

      After all the biggest religions are also 'inventions' by certain people.
      While some question the existance of Jesus or his role as the founder of Christianity, the founders of religions such as islam, zoroastrianism, confucianism, buddhism and taoism are historical persons and hadn't they been born or made their living as priests and scholars, the world could be so much different now..
      -- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
      -- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by binTravkin

        ""quote:
        But true research isn't blind, and has never been blind.""

        It is.
        Only minor advances have been made by systematical data collection and application.

        And dont say that there's something that proves the opposite,
        Unfortunately - WAR proves the opposite.

        A lot of true research happens when a particular Civ has it's backs against the wall. Trying to develop ways to stop it being conquered.

        Then new weapons, defensive or otherwise are developed - which later prove to have spin-offs (how ever small) usefull to the public at large.

        Also war does not always entail fighting on the battlefield - consider the ColdWar and the ensuing battle on who gets into Space first (Russians) and then to the Moon first (USA).

        [Or a film studio - if you believe the conspiracy advocates.] Which I don't. Just like to throw a bit of humour into the debate.

        "What if somebody gave a war and nobody came?" Allen Ginsberg

        "Opinions are like arses, everyone has one." Anon

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        • #19
          Originally posted by binTravkin

          It is.
          Only minor advances have been made by systematical data collection and application.
          I am sorry, but you are simply wrong.

          Of course there have been accidental discoveries. Penicillin is a rather famous example. But most discoveries are not accidents. Newton didn't stumble upon the Theory of Gravity by accident, Einstein didn't just conjure the Theory of Relativity out of thin air.

          Inventers spent years and years of focussed research on developping things like combustion engines, flight or (the usage of) electricity. Such discoveries are not accidents. The researchers / inventors developping these things knew what they were doing, and knew what they wanted even before they started working on it.

          If we look at ideas like liberalism or communism. They didn't come out of nowhere either. Philosophers spent years developping them, thinking about them. Neither were they independent developments. If Marx hadn't written "Das Kapital" someone else would have written something very much like it. Perhaps a bit later, perhaps a bit difference, but the main ideas would have been the same.

          To name a few good examples, why most of our current technology is researched by the blind type of research:

          Fire
          Wheel
          Metal Casting
          Gunpowder
          All things of which the information about how it was discovered is lost in the mysts of time. Rarther cheap to claim them as arguments for your theory when you don't know how they were invented.

          I doubt The Wheel was discovered by accident. People have been using tree trunks and other round objects as tools for transport for a very, very long time. Gradually they become more advanced and turned into the wheel. Nothing accidental about that though. Sounds more like people thinking rationally about the concept and seeing room for improvement.

          Same story for Metal Casting. And gunpowder.. Well, who knows about the original one, but most explosives weren't discovered by accident, and firearms certainly weren't.


          Theory Of Relativity - most of the modern physics are based on the principles Einstein and his immediate followers stated, nothing radically new has been invented since then, most of the physicians are still busy with things like Theory of Gravity and Unified Field theory, where little progress is made since early 20th century, until another genius or few will make a leap forward.
          I'm afraid you are rather making a fool out of yourself here. Even bad first year students of physics understand the Theory of Gravity. It's not hard. And it certainly was not an accidental discovery.

          Only a small part of modern physics is based on the Theory of Relativity. Quantum mechanics is a much larger chunk of physics. But by far most is still based on good old Classical Mechanics.

          To say nothing radically new has been invented since is nonsense. Quantum Mechanics has seen enormous leaps forward.

          And Unified Field Theory? Well first of all that wasn't around yet in the early 20th century. In fact it still isn't around yet. It's a dream physicists have. A theory they already know the shape of, and one day hope to formulate. In fact it's a very good illustration of my point, that research isn't blind. People have been working on that theory for many years, and will probably for many more years. One day we will manage to complete it. By that time it will have thousands of fathers, who all looked forward to it for a loong, loong time. That's about as far from 'blind' as you can get.


          After all the biggest religions are also 'inventions' by certain people.
          While some question the existance of Jesus or his role as the founder of Christianity, the founders of religions such as islam, zoroastrianism, confucianism, buddhism and taoism are historical persons and hadn't they been born or made their living as priests and scholars, the world could be so much different now..
          Well, religions are a different story. Many of the doctrines of the popular religions seem to be more or less random and might has well have been different. But well, religions aren't advances in civ, are they? So they are rather offtopic.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Diadem
            I am sorry, but you are simply wrong.

            Of course there have been accidental discoveries. Penicillin is a rather famous example. But most discoveries are not accidents. Newton didn't stumble upon the Theory of Gravity by accident, Einstein didn't just conjure the Theory of Relativity out of thin air.
            But as far as I know Newton was not told to discover the Theory of Gravity, which makes it "blind research" for England
            This space is empty... or is it?

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            • #21
              Actually much of the early work in mechanics (which resulted ultimately in Newton's Laws) was sponsored by kings and other rulers. They wanted to have accurate cannons, so they needed mechanics to be able to calculate trajectories.

              Anyway, in real life governements don't decide what buildings are built in cities either, or where farms and mines are built. Certainly in the past governements never even thought about things like that.

              So you have more control over your empire than is realistic in every area there is.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Thomas Hobbes
                Or do you have those huge government research facilities in your country, where thousands of inventors and engineers are payed by the government?
                Yes.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Diadem
                  Anyway, in real life governements don't decide what buildings are built in cities either, or where farms and mines are built. Certainly in the past governements never even thought about things like that.

                  So you have more control over your empire than is realistic in every area there is.
                  No in real life in Europe, governments decide when farms and mines etc. are to be destroyed at the behest of the unelected overpayed politicions of the European Union.

                  The elected MPs are just to appease the public and have no real say in what goes on.

                  To simulate this in Civ4:

                  New National Wonder - THe Federal Union.

                  Effects: Adds 2 trade routes to each City. Costs 20 gold per turn. +2 unhappiness per city. Randomly destroys a mine, or farm or pasture etc. every turn in your Civ. Changes the City Nationality Bar by 1% (every 5 turns) for every other Civ that has the Wonder.

                  Now would you build that wonder.
                  Last edited by Harrier UK; November 24, 2006, 08:02.
                  "What if somebody gave a war and nobody came?" Allen Ginsberg

                  "Opinions are like arses, everyone has one." Anon

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                  • #24
                    Some interesting posts on history but the bottom line is blind research sucks in a strategy game. That's why it was only an option in SMAC and will never become the norm in any future Civ game.

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