can you break a vassal agreement?

[D4everman]

Can you attack a vassal? I conquered Brennus, but he won't trade artillery to me so I want to smash ihs few cities. But I can't declare war on him and he won't on me. Is there a way to break vassalage?

[Solver]

You wish .

[Tattila the Hun]

IMHO, Brennus should not have any saying on whether he wants to give you tech or not... Grrr...

[ben04]

I thought that Brennus could only refuse by declaring war on you.

[Solver]

Originally posted by ben04
I thought that Brennus could only refuse by declaring war on you.

That is the case with resource demands only.

[Adagio]

Yeah, when you ask your vassal for a simple gift, but they refuse, then it's kinda annoying that you can't do anything about it

[Solver]

I honestly don't get the people who think it's annoying...

Anyway, this means you have to actually think before you accept a vassal. Because once you do, you're in all likelihood stuck with them.

[Adagio]

It's annoying as in it makes no sense. Why can I declare war on my vassal for not giving me the last coal they have, while I can't declare war on them for not giving me some useless tech

Though I must admit that I haven't really been in this situation myself, so I'm not annoyed by it...

[Blake]

Yeah it is kinda annoying. The only way to get rid of a vassal is get a 3rd party to kill them off for you.

Fortunately they are far less annoying in 2.08 as they get the defensive pact relationship bonus, so you might actually be able to trade with them. And there's no close borders to worry about.

[Solver]

It's annoying as in it makes no sense. Why can I declare war on my vassal for not giving me the last coal they have, while I can't declare war on them for not giving me some useless tech

Because vassals are your vassals. A vassal agreement means that you're supposed to protect them in exchange for economical help and cooperation from them. It doesn't mean that they are your slaves who have to give you everything. If you want to, build good relations with them.

[Adagio]

But I can better protect them if they give me some techs, so it's for their own good

[Solver]

I don't think techs such as Education or Calendar improve your ability to protect them . And if they have military techs that you don't, then something is very wrong anyway .

[Tattila the Hun]

Education=Universities=Tech=Tanks=Protection.

[Adagio]

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
Education=Universities=Tech=Tanks=Protection.

Exactly

But sure, a lot of techs wont give me a better way of protecting them

[Diadem]

Originally posted by Solver

It's annoying as in it makes no sense. Why can I declare war on my vassal for not giving me the last coal they have, while I can't declare war on them for not giving me some useless tech

Because vassals are your vassals. A vassal agreement means that you're supposed to protect them in exchange for economical help and cooperation from them. It doesn't mean that they are your slaves who have to give you everything. If you want to, build good relations with them.

Perhaps for peaceful vassals. But for vassals I conquered? They surrendered to me. It's stupid that when I'm about to obliterate them, and I accept their surrender out of benevolence, I am suddenly at their mercy, and they can in the future do anything they like to piss me off without me being able to do anything about it. That's just ... bad design.

The relationship between masters and conquered vassals should be simple: Obey or die.

But the entire vassal system is badly designed. In a recent game I was good friends with Isabella, plus 20 or so total. She got conquered by Mansa Musa, whom she had been furious with for a looong time already. Shortly after this I attacking Mansa Musa and smashed him to bits, freeing Isabella.

You'd expect a "+5 You freed us from evil tyranny" relationship modifier or something like that. Instead you get "-4 you declared war on our master" and other negative modifiers. In fact you'll be at war even after she's broken free, and you have to hope they are willing to accept peace (if they even talk to you).

It makes sense within the rules of the game. But it's nonsensical if you look at realism. And it subtracts rather a lot from the gameplay. Vassals are just implemented badly.

Vassals who have surrendered shouldn't suddenly like their master. But they should obey. Unless they smell a chance to break free, then they should grab it - even backstabbing their master if need be. Their should be good odds of 'hostile' vassals joining with the party attacking the master, instead of with the master, especially if the attacking party is a good friend. (In exchange of course, the master should reap much greater benefits from vassals). Or they should try to stay clear of the war - secretly offering the aggressor a cease fire or something like that. Now that'd be cool diplomacy.

Instead, vassals faithfully suicide for masters they hate. In one war I had, where both I and the one I attacked had dozens of tanks, gunships, fighters etc, one of his vassals sent half of his total military - 2 infantry and a cavalry - to invade my territory. A stupid suicide that had absolutely not point, in defence of a master he hated.

No. The vassal system is simply broken in civ4. It is a good idea, and I hope to see it fixed in the next XP. But for now, the best strategy regarding vassals is to stay clear of them.