Civs that never amount to anything

[D4everman]

Is Tokugawa ever anything but I grumpy, weak civ-leader. Seriously, I've never had a game where he's been anything other than hostile from the beginning to end, he never wants to trade with me no matter what civ I am (so presumably he has something against the human player) but he never has more than a small civ which usually gets beaten down by someone else.

What I find hilarious about him is he always comes to me for help when he's getting his head handed to him. I always feel like, "Dude, you wouldn't trade anything or even open borders with me from turn one, now I'm supposed to help you?". This happened last night and I was tempted to just attack him myself too, but a 3rd party declared war on me right then. I think thats the only thing that saved his life.

But Tokugawa can't have the only civ that never makes a dent in the game? Surely there are others?

[Henrik]

Re: Civs that never amount to anything

Originally posted by D4everman
(so presumably he has something against the human player) ?

Actually he just hates everyone human or AI makes no difference

[D4everman]

But doesn't that give the japanese civ AI a big handicap? Tokugawa doesn't make allies and usually has a small nation compared to the others. Since he doesn't seem to get along with anyone someone usually ends up taking him out. As the human player I usually jump in on the fight and help take him out generaly just for his cities and resources. I can't think of any time someone came to his aid.

[Diadem]

Actually in my games Tokugawa is always a strong AI. He doesn't hate everybody, he always seems to make some friends, though usually not a lot, and usually not the human player.

He's usually not as strong as Mansa, but he's definitely always a solid AI.

[Solver]

Yeah, Tokugawa is a weak AI because of his isolationist policy. It's very rare to get him to even sign Open Borders - usually he ends up being a civ with no friends and of little consequence.

Somehow I also find Wang Kon being weak most of the time he appears.

[Saurus]

You must remember that A.I vs A.I relations does not work on the same basis as AI vs human relations.

Yes - for a human player it is nearly impossible to get along with Tokugawa.
However, Tokugawa treats other A.I players with the same randomness all the other A.I:s treats other A.I players.

(Witch means, they choose somebody randomly who is their worst enemy and then hold onto this stance almost regardless of any + or - modifiers to relations)

for instance in my last game:
A.I Tokugawa - A.I Mansa Musa

Relation (Toku toward Mansa):
+1 (for years of peace)
+2 (struggle VS same enemy)
+2 (open borders)
+1 (civics)
-2 (wrong religion)
= +4.
Yet, they both still are annoyed toward each other and still see each other like worst enemies and I can trade with neither of them as then the other gets upset. (None of them sees Monty, whom they are at war with, as their worst enemy) even if both has a relation of worse than -5 toward Monty.

(the open border is indeed a funny thing here as normaly Tokugawa shuns open borders even with other A.I:s. I suppose that the A.I:s sign open borders with other A.I:s no matter what if they are fighting the same opponent. After the war, the open border agreement was immediately terminated)

[D4everman]

I wonder if the designers are aware then that 90% of the time Tokugawa is a non-entity by the mid to late game. I've only had one gane where he was a marginal threat, and that only lasted about 100 or so game years. Once we got past that he was a joke.

In my latest game Isabella ripped him down to three or four measly cities. One is on the shorelinebut in my teritory. I was going to take it from him, but Isabella took his capitol and this shoreline city became his new one. I could still take it from him, and i probably will. Just for spite, too. If he had traded with me at least once or opened borders i would have helped him against Spain.

[Blake]

Yeah poor little Tokugawa, altough I find him kinda endearing. It's fun getting a defensive pact with him, or getting him to friendly. I wanna give him stuff just to see a smile on his face.

I used to ****ing hate Tokugawa and would raze his cities out of principle, but then I learnt that he's pretty much harmless and just wants to live in peace.

Okay other AI's who don't amount to anything. I think Isabella wins some kind of award for most likely to get dogpiled out of existence because she always picks fights with those bigger than her (I don't think she takes relative power into consideration). Monty nearly invariably gets dogpiled out of existence too, but is usually quite entertaining since he'll declare new wars before ending old ones, he sure does make a nuisance of himself before dying (unlike tokugawa who just sulks in the corner).

In Warlords I've found Shaka to be much the same, isolationist and retarded. Altough he seems to be more unpredictable.

[Chicagophil]

I'm currently in the middle of a large, Great Plains, 18 Civ game that I've been playing for going on 12 hours now.

I got the Tao religion & it spread down to Tokugawa & we've had open boarder & peace for some time. It wasn't until I got into War with a friend of his that our relationship started to go down hill. Casear was the same way, I never once had problems with him until I got into a war with a friend of his.

Like always, It's Monty that's just a pain in the but.

[rah]

I had one game where tokugawa was my best bud. I made him my religious ***** early.
He'd give me techs for free and eventually became the #2 civ since he was trapped behind me so it limited any possible adventursim. He loyally went with me to war every time and actually helped.

I've never enjoyed stabbing someone in the back more when it got down to the two of us.

Isabella is such a twit that it's not worth the effort. +15 isn't even good enough when the hormones are flying.
But it is fun refusing her every request. Yeah, go to war with me and every other civ will nibble away you freakin empire. Come and get me. You'll be whining for peace as soon as you're allowed.

[Solver]

Interesting, in Warlords, I find Shaka to always be one of the most powerful leaders. Isabella, on the other hand, I don't think I've ever seen even smiling .

[Chicagophil]

I love when a Civ won't let me be. I'm normally friendly with the ones that follow my faith. So when the game gets going the top 5 Civs & I will be just running the table, there there will always be some Civ that is a royal pain in the butt.

I just love out of the blue they cut all times with me. Close boarders etc. Well at the time I'll be winning the game & be great friends with the next 5 Civs. Well, when the scrubs declear war on me, I just goto the other Civs & ask them what will it take to declear war on them? I give in. Sooner or later they are wiped out or they're the last place Civ for the rest of the game.

My mentality of Civ4 is don't mess with me & I won't mess with you.

[kittenOFchaos]

In single-player the Roosevelt AI is a delight to be next to as he is a complete military pushover, hasn't got traits that allow decent resistance nor a UU that will get in the way.

Roosevelt builds me an empire

[SFADAMS44]

I played Shaka one time going to a domination win. Had Tokugowa to my NE, Izzy to my SE and Genghis to my west. Promptly kick Izzy's ass since I can't stand her, converted Tok to my religion and we went on to kill everyone else as best buds. He helped me in every war. Course then he had to go for my Dom win! So Tok isn't such a bad guy all the time.

[Kekkonen]

It seems to me that the only way not to get into a fight with Isabella is to share her religion. Usually that means Buddhism, since she always researches Meditation first.