How do you deal with barbarians early on?

[damarcus]

I've been playing this game for about a week now and I'm now playing on Monarch (I found the lower levels a bit easy).

The problem I have now is balancing between expansion and protecting my cities. It seems that when I expand to about 4 cities early on, I leave my cities too vulnerable to barbarians. Do you guys find that barbarians seem to target only human players too? How do you deal with the balancing act between barbs and expansion?

Also, on Monarch level, I'm finding it difficult to even get a reasonable start without very good terrain. Any help would be appreciated.

[damarcus]

Another dilemma that I face is this. When I can't find a hill/plains starting location, I find it too difficult to even compete at the Monarch level. I tend to produce settler as my first unit, and starting on hill/plains allows me to produce another settler in 30 turns. Normally, it takes me at least 36 turns to produce a settler, so this is a big difference.

How do you cope with starting on non hill/plains setting?

(BTW, I play creative/financial trait combination)

[Swiss Pauli]

Welcome aboard! Well, a week's play and already on Monarch is pretty decent, so don't worry too much about struggling at this point.

Regarding starting with a Settler, it's a quite risky strategy as the lay of the land isn't clear. Seeing as you're playing with Cathy, you could go for a Scout, Warrior, or Worker. I'd recommend the latter if there's a lot for him to do, allowing for 1 or two techs to be researched whilst he's being trained and completing his first terraforming.

I think the advantages of a warrior and scout are quite obvious, but check Vel's (topped) strategy thread for the lowdown on the early turns.

[couerdelion]

Just of the top of my head the start for Cathy would normally be a scout. And this would be built as quickly as possible to rush for those huts. When it comes to sending out a settler, the scouts are still good at clearing fog which is an important element of dealing with barbs.

The one competing early build would be a worker which I would probably only do if I had deer within the fat-cross.

Regards moving to a plains hill But don't do this at the expense of leaving a strong start. If in doubt, use the scout move to check the view around the hill you are aiming for.

Techwise, I suspect the best option will be Bronze. You want two things - to know where there is copper and to unlock the whip function. With these two barbs should become no more than a nuisance.

After Bronze, I guess you want the best route to Pottery to use Cathy's financial trait.

I used to like playing Cathy in the vanilla version - not tried her yet on Warlords - and she was always pretty effective

[damarcus]

The reason I go for a settler as the first unit is b/c I find it's the best way to start out. Consider the competiting units:

1) Scout -- Starting out as Cathy, I already have a scout to get at some of the huts nearby. A second scout is redunant and it costs me many turns before I could found a second city. Granted, building a scout will allow the city to grow to size 2, but I find that the production difference between a size 1 and size 2 city in building a settler is negligible.

2) Warrior -- This is a poor choice when starting with Cathy as scouts are better at exploration. The warrior does provide some defence, but at the early going, I'm focused on expansion, not defence. The AI barbarians don't attack until about 1600 BC.

3) Worker -- This is admittedly an interesting choice. But I find that there's not much for the workers to do in the early going. As Cathy, they can mine or build a camp, but both of these don't generate that better of a result than just using a flood plains in terms of producing a settler. A variation of the strategy would be to go for bronze and use the chop function to produce the subsequent units more quickly, but this comes at a cost -- chopping forests reduces health. But the greater cost, I believe, lies in opportunity cost, b/c you are founding that second city that much later.

My primary goal in the early game is to use that lone scout to: 1) Find the spot for a second city; 2) Grab the villages. Hence, my usual choice is to go for a settler as the first unit.

With respect to starting technology -- I've usually gone for religious techs to set one of my cities as the holy city. This is also in accordance with my personal taste, b/c I don't like certain religions spreading in my empire. So my starting techs usually focus on getting the religion I want and getting enough techs for the settler to exploit the surrounding resources.

My problem at the Monarch level is that I'm missing out on the early wonders that I want, like the Pyramids (for representation) and the Oracle (to go for the forge technology). Without the stone resource, I am at a loss as to how to get Pyramids even if I were to start out as a leader with industrial trait.

Any thoughts?

[Swiss Pauli]

Re: starting unit - you haven't considered the downsides of Settler first: maintenence, potentially unrevealed resources (metals, horses), animal attack. I'd advocate trying alternatives anyway; it doesn't cost much time to try a different opening.

Re: starting techs - your statement about religion is a bit odd from a gameplay perspective; it's certainly not a low risk approach for Cathy as you could easily miss Buddhism and Hinduism. A 2 city Oracle grab for Code of Laws (and Confucianism) is pretty straightforward.

Re: Oracle/Pyramids - both nice to have, but neither is essential. If you're struggling with barbs then prioritize army over wonders.

[couerdelion]

Cathy's financial trait makes Pottery an early priority. The creative trait is strong in that it allows you to locate your first few cities in strong locations - rather than immediately next to important resources. Cathy is not really a religious play so I'd put this further down the list of priorities. Probably a good case can be made for getting Confucianism after you've got the basic techs sorted out.

Bronze Working - Access to copper and whipping
Pottery - For cottages
Writing - Library (for scientist -> Academy) and open up Code of Laws.
Other important resource techs

With this in place you can then take the direct route to Code of Laws and probably snag the Oracle on the way.

You should try the second scout approach. These will almost certainly help you to get LOTS of huts which will bring you gold and techs for an early boost to the civ.

As for workers, if there are good resources to work then this will often help get an early settler out. With either wheat or corn next to a freshwater source, you'll turn that one tile you are using for a settler from a 1h tile to a 4h tile. All you need to do is research Agriculture while building the worker and your first city hardly notices the delayed growth from the worker build. Your first priority should be to increase your food and the easiest way to do this, if the resources are there, is to get yourself and early worker.

The worker will also be able to build roads to speed the route to the second city, link up strategic resources and you have the benefit that, from the start, you can improve all of the basic happiness resources so are less likely to run into early happiness problems from the early use of the whip

[fed1943]

So, Catherine: I like this choice. And the map? I assume pangea,

continents, not far from that from the posts.

Scout, first; two scouts are not too much to grab huts, spot sites

and know the land around you.

Then, what can a worker do?

Anyway warrior/s and worker.

And develop the city: food first.

Clear some fog to "extend" the creative advantage against barbs.

Best regards,

[sjm]

I find the easiest way of dealing with barbs is to beeline for bronze working, grab some bronze and churn out 2 or 3 axemen ASAP. Send them to the periphery of your empire (build roads!!!) and place them on forested hills, if at all possible, for the 75% def bonus and extended sight. Barbs can only appear from the fog of war. Try and deal with the barbs BEFORE they get near your cities (and improvements). You can get a couple of axemen out before the barbs even begin turning up with warriors. That'll give you some nice XP for when the barb axemen finally start turning up (a long time from now though).

You don't need archery at all - in fact, I personally almost never research it myself - I'll trade for it once I've got to alphabet. Axemen can beat archers, axemen and swordsmen 1 on 1 in the widerness. Just make sure you have a decent road network, so that you can move your units around to deal with barbarians as and when they spawn.

You might be screwed if there's no bronze around though

Bronze working is a great early tech to grab - the whipping, the chopping and the axemen mean that it is probably hands-down the most powerful early tech. You also need to know where the bronze is in order to place your 2nd or 3rd city accordingly.

Also don't neglect your culture, and don't expand too fast. High culture means less fog of ware, which means less barbs, and less area you need to scout with units. Try and see if you can't get borders on your empire that barbs can't spawn from - for example along a coast. That's one less front to deal with, so expand with a plan

As for religions, there's little point in going for the early religions on higher levels (unless given an exceptional start), as you'll get beaten to them. Go for the techs that benefit your overall empire, and then beeline for code of laws for the courthouses and confucianism. If you get a shrine up and running quickly, the reduced maintenance (courthouses) and extra income (shrine) mean you're then sorted financially for the rest of the game - and can probably run with 0% commerce if you play it right (missionaries). Code of laws really allows you to begin thinking about spreading out and founding more cities - the earlier you get it, the earlier you can have a big empire that doesn't bankrupt you.

Expand too far too early and you'll bankrupt yourself, never being the first to research anything good.

[couerdelion]

I’d agree on the bit about using units to clear the fog but not on the axemen thing. The road system and cost of building axemen will take your mind of more important long-term development matters.

Use some of your animal-killing warriors to do this sort of work – even scouts. Their fortification and bonus will make them tough to dislodge and they also provide an early warning system. Archers on hills are even better since they are not so even vulnerable to axemen.

The axemen are the ones you need to keep closer to home, ready to move to areas within your borders to protect any improvements. Certainly on Warlords, you’ll see barbarians completely ignore a defender if there is some territory nearby that can be pillaged.

The big barb killer on Warlords is also the Chariot so Animal Husbandry should be considered if copper is nowhere in sight.

I also agree the Bronze Working is a strong tech and IMHO is the most powerful in the game – although I will perhaps concede that Mining might just be more important since this is a pre-req

[sjm]

I must admit I'm playing Vanilla

Agree that archers are obviously good on hills - but, and here's the big but:

a) I'm not prioritising a tech that leads pretty much nowhere (archery is a dead end, if I remember correctly), which means getting useful techs several turns earlier
b) I want my archers to have city defender bonuses (for later in the game vs other civs), which are wasted on your borders.
c) An axeman on a forested hill really is as good as impossible for barbs to dislodge, as they tend not to come in stacks, letting you heal nicely. Those that dodge past your fortified units, you simply need to hunt down when they step onto a plains or grassland tile (at the latest, once they found an improvement to pillage). This is what the road network is for.
d) You'll need a road network anyway, otherwise you won't have any form of trade network, and won't be using those resources...
e) You want all those axemen with 3 city raider promotions for when you go to war and in order to promote them later (think city raider grenadiers in several thousand years). Attack is the best form of defence. Keep one or two axemen in reserve with combat promotions for dealing with barbs that break through your defences, as they'll get the fortification bonuses if you need to attack them.
f) and leading on from that - axemen are better on the attack, being able to take archers on 1 v 1 as long as the archer isn't on a hill. You can't attack a barb axeman with an archer, but the axeman can attack the archer. I know that's why you're advocating keeping the axemen back, of course. But why wait until the enemy is in your midst, when you could smite them immediately? Wouldn't you rather have the archers in the towns (with their nice fat bonuses) and let the axeman do the hunting?

[rah]

I don't give archers city defender promotions.
Of course I don't build many archers.
If it gets to the point where they're attacking your cities, it's too late and your land is trashed.
I almost always attack out unless I'm desperate.
Especially after seige weapons are loose.

[Calvin Vu]

It depends on starting position

I vary my strategy depending on the civ I'm playing and the starting position.

- Settler first: when there is a great location nearby, especially with gold (with decent food source in order to use the gold mine) or, at least, plenty of flood plain squares to build cottages for gold to offset the extra maintenance cost early in the game.
- Worker first: when there are some special resources which can give big boost to the settle production later or in a particualrly heavy forested region which I can chop to my heart content.
- warrior(s) first: when the starting location is good and it's better to let the first city grow to bigger size to take advantage of the good squares. Starting with flood plains and gold is an example. It would be a crime not to grow the city first in this case.

If none of the above conditions is true then I will most likely build a warrior or two first to clear out the surrounding fog. I don't reserve time/resources to do research for archery or build axemen to protect myself against barbarians. In fact, I often leave the early cities undefended but spread my warriors/scout around in the surrounding area at strategic hill/forested spots to intercept any barbarians heading my way.

Sometimes things can screwed up, like the one time when I had 5, 6 barbarian archers heading to my 2 cities when I only had a total of 4 warriors built. It's rare enough to restart and play another game . It's not more risky than build a settler first, leaving one scout to defend two cities though.

And, of course, if I play an aggressive civ and there is copper nearby then I don't need to expand much. I let the neighbouring civs do that for me .

[Arrian]

I find chariots are quite useful (particularly so in warlords, but even in vanilla they're good) for dealing with barbs. Obviously, you need horses, so it's a bit hit-or-miss.

Chariots beat warriors and archers handily, and combat1+shock chariot will have decent odds vs barb axes (in warlords, chariots eat axemen for lunch, but that's another matter). Their two moves make them excellent for mobile defense/fog busting.

Failing that... clear as much fog as you can so you've got time to deal with incoming barbs. Archery is the safe choice, since you're not gambling on having metal.

-Arrian

[zeace]

It is true that Archery leads nowhere, but it really does keep the barbs at bay. Even the axes can't get past a well fortified archer. Only when the barbs get swords do you need anything more than arrows. If you add chariots, you can last even longer.

I think this dilemma is one of my favourite aspects of the game. I usually research BW early, and then you have to make the decision about whether to plant a city at that far off copper location, or give up on copper and quickly research archery so you can survive until iron. If you have AH first, it can help by telling you if you'll have horses or not.

If you're still having problems with the barbs, try going down a level (prince) and turning on raging barbarians. Then hold on tight as they are really tough. It took me a few tries to beat a raging game, but it struck a fear in me so that I'm always thinking about the upcoming rush.