How to defend against trebuchets?

[Dis]

I got raped bad last night by these things. Not even my cavalry could touch the stack they were in. So I was forced to rely on defense. But my superior defenders were worn down by these things allowing war elephants to defeat my cavalry. horse archers to defeat my pikeman. macemen defeated my musketmen. knights defeated my longbowmen.

I thought I had my city well defended. I had a ton of defenders. Because the french cultural borders went right up to my cities in one corner. That corner happened to be a jungle hill. My cavalry weren't strong enough to attack the SOD sitting there.

And it's annoying even catapults can reduce a modern city to ruins. These things should lose effectiveness at some stage of the game.

I think my main mistake was not having trebuchets or cannons of my own. I could have worn down their stack. There was nothing else I could do. I couldn't attack them. And I couldn't defend against them. Even with superior units. Very annoying. Next time, hopefully I'll learn to have artillery type units in vulnerable cities. They aren't just for offense I have found out.

And why do they always attack the turn after you get military tradition? It's like this every single game. Luckily I had the gold to upgrade my knights.

[Dis]

And what's up with Napoleon? He doesn't have the aggressive trait anymore does he? He still builds lots of units and acts like an *******. Maybe it's hardcoded in that leader.

[LDiCesare]

You successfully get rid of enemy trebuchets by attacking their stack, period. It may take some planning, though, as you'll need a big stack in the city to attack the trebs' stack. A ledic I unit is very useful in this case because you can heal your units faster between incoming enemy stacks.
"Attack is the best defense".

[CerberusIV]

You need to boost culture if they can move right next to a city. To the AI that is an invitation they won't refuse. Build cultural buildings, especially theatres as they cost few hammers, or run an artist specialist for a while. You really have to try and push those borders back.

Otherwise keep a reserve of catapults ready. Clear jungle/forest tiles adjacent to border cities as a priority.

As a final option - attack first. You know who the warmongering AI's are. Once they get the idea they are stronger than you (even if that simply means weaker units but 3x as many) they will attack. So check the power graph regularly.

[Dis]

actually I read that seige units do not suffere from collateral damage. Is this true?

If so then, trebs of my own wouldn't be so useful (except to weaken the defenders in the stack so I can attack them).

Basically I was in a ****ty position. I could not attack and win, and I could not defend and win.

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by Dis
actually I read that seige units do not suffere from collateral damage. Is this true?

In Warlords, yes. But cats are only strength 5 and trebs only defend at strength 4. Your own cats would have weakened the other units in the stack, hopefully to the point they could be killed and your cavalry would have been able to mop up any cats/trebs even on a jungle hill.

To be fair, once Nappy moved to attack you had almost certainly lost that city whatever you did.

[Cort Haus]

I read somewhere that collateral damage only hits up to 8 units in a stack, so filling the city with loads of cheeseball obsoletes might spare some stronger units.

I think some leaders, like Boney have aggressive parameters set into his behavour whatever their traits.

[Blake]

At some point it's better to back out of a city and let the AI in, and then counter-attack. There's the slight risk that they'll raze, but I find they usually only raze if the city is very distant from their culture.

Once the AI is in the city they'll have crappy defensive bonuses and will be easy victims for your own city raider units.

As an added bonus the fighting will be in territory which is culturally yours, that means you don't suffer any warweariness from destroying the attacking units (as opposed to counter-attacking while they're still in hostile culture).

I find that sometimes the retreat gambit is the only way to win wars and it's often the cleanest (your unit stack likely costs a lot more than the buildings in the threatened city).

[diemex]

I sure would not want to risk having my city razed.

As for stacks of doom... catapaults and trebuchets.... best defense against them is ANY unit that causes collatoral damage. Weaken them so they cant break you.... or so you can destroy them.

I've said it before... it dont matter what you got for defense... if a stack of collatoral damaging units shows up... they will break you down. Many sacrifices... but each unit that attacks... fail or not... will damage your units making the next attack easier. If you want to survive.... outnumber 3-1 or take them out with your own stack before they do !

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I read somewhere that collateral damage only hits up to 8 units in a stack, so filling the city with loads of cheeseball obsoletes might spare some stronger units.

The number of units hit with collateral damage varies, though each siege unit has a maximum number of units it will affect. For instance, in Warlords I have had a multi-unit stack defended by Rifles (or infantry) hit by a catapult and only one unit was affected by collateral damage. I don't know if it is random or if the relative strengths come to bear.

[Dis]

Originally posted by diemex
I sure would not want to risk having my city razed.

As for stacks of doom... catapaults and trebuchets.... best defense against them is ANY unit that causes collatoral damage. Weaken them so they cant break you.... or so you can destroy them.

I've said it before... it dont matter what you got for defense... if a stack of collatoral damaging units shows up... they will break you down. Many sacrifices... but each unit that attacks... fail or not... will damage your units making the next attack easier. If you want to survive.... outnumber 3-1 or take them out with your own stack before they do !

although it wasn't actually my original city. It was the last city I had taken from the Celts. That's why the culture wasn't built up enough to push the borders back. The thing is I had forgotten to rush the university (which I hate doing anyways since they are so expensive). I kind of forgotten about the city until it was too late.

[couerdelion]

People have said it already but the most straightforward method of destroying a large stack is to send in the catapults to weaken their units and then hit them with your stronger units.

It’s a little surprising that you had cavalry killed by War elephants though. Usually, you’d expect the pikes to go against WE (8v12) rather than Cavalry (12v15).

Of course, it seems like you have some serious issues with numbers here so the city was always exposed. So, Blake’s suggestion of withdrawing from the city makes a lot of sense – particularly for city raider units that are better fighting their way into cities than out of them. Maybe leave a few strong defenders (Muskets, Longbow,Pikes) around if they have fortification bonus, city garrison promotion, cultural defenses. These will be useful if they can visibly weaken the stack. If the large part of your forces can retreat out of attack range you might be able to lure them into taking the city and then dividing its forces. You then take out the advanced stack of doom using catapults and assorted attack units (cavalry, macemen etc) then move back onto the city with your raiders and your own collateral damage units.

[Tattila the Hun]

There should some improvement, that uses up fast moving unit's movement, like the fort-addition in C3C. I'd like to prevent the buggers from pouring trough my borders raping and pillaging as they go, but I would not want them to have the +50% defence from things like forrests, and you cannot grow those, anyway... Dragons teeth, minefield... Great Wall could have this effect, but it should be attainable some other way... Not So Great Wall?

And you should not be able to raze modern cities... It's... stupid. We are talking genocide here, done by a half strength artillery unit... Millions of people, slaughtered... If they really need to keep the razing, make it gradual, slow process, needing plenty of troops...

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun

And you should not be able to raze modern cities... It's... stupid. We are talking genocide here, done by a half strength artillery unit... Millions of people, slaughtered... If they really need to keep the razing, make it gradual, slow process, needing plenty of troops...

It always was genocide

Though actually you should think of it more like the destruction of the city rather than murdering the population.

[Dis]

don't we have forts in civ4?

If only they were useful and could be built with other improvements.