CS slingshot on Prince or above?

[khumak]

I'm wondering how feasible the CS slingshot is on Prince or above. I've been messing with it lately on Prince and have not been able to get a pure CS slingshot to work on Prince or above. I've had to settle for using the oracle to get Metal Casting and research CS the old fashioned way which generally means I'm better off diverting significant time researching worker related techs first.

Every time I try for the pure CS slingshot either the AI beats me to the Oracle because I have to slow my build WAY down while waiting for my research on Code of Laws to finish, or I build the oracle before I'm even remotely close to finishing Code of Laws.

My latest game is the best "builder" game I've managed so far on Prince. I'm WAY ahead in tech. I'm "friendly" with almost everyone, probably because I'm so far ahead in tech. Because of that I can trade for pretty much any resource I'm missing or just ask the AI to give it to me. I've only missed 2 wonders so far, (Great Lighthouse, and Sistine Chapel). All but 2 of those were built in my capitol which also happens to be my GPP.

My capitol is a serious monster of a city. More than half of my total research is done by my capitol. Nothing but grassland or plains towns + sea/coastal with fish/whales except for a farm on a wheat tile. All tiles used with plenty of extra food per turn for pop growth. Production would normally be low but I settled a bunch of engineers and priests. Also switched to the civic that gives 1 hammer per town so my GPP actually has higher production than my "production cities" surrounded by mines with copper/iron.

My start went like this:

1st city (1 fish, 1 wheat, 1 whale) build order: worker, work boat, settler, settler, library (poprushed), terrace(Inca granary - poprushed), settler, settler, temple (poprushed), Oracle , wonder, wonder, wonder, etc with assorted buildings poprushed in between

city 2-5 build order: quencha (Inca warrior) x2 for defense + growth, worker, Great Wall/Pyramids (both in city 2), buildings + workers

Research path (Inca start:Agriculture/?): Fishing, Wheel, Pottery, Masonry (I had stone), Writing, Mining, Bronzeworking, Poly, Mono (got Judaism), Priesthood, Metal Casting (free), Animal Husbandry (sheep/horse/cows all over), Code of Laws, CS, Alphabet

(This research path is what I settled on after I gave up on the pure CS slingshot and settled for a modified Metal Casting production slingshot)

Worker 1 immediately farmed the wheat, then built roads to my next city site while waiting for Pottery, then built cottages + stone quarry + lots more cottages and roads. City 1 had my only food resources that didn't require AH so I used it as my initial settler pump while my other cities grew and built quencha/workers/Great Wall/Pyramids.

Barbarians beat me to city site #6 that I wanted so I waited at 5 cities til I got Swordsmen and then went and conquered it. All six cities have at least 2 specials and only 1 didn't have a food special but it had horses, iron, and gold so can't complain. Only strategic resource I'm missing so far is marble which made some of my wonders expensive.

The Great Wall turned out to be extremely important because without it I would have been over run by barbarian Axemen. I didn't have axemen yet at the time and I never did research archery or horse archers (traded for them eventually). Ironically I could probably have played it on Raging Barbarians without every having to build any defensive units other than the 1 warrior/city for happiness because of the Great Wall.

I purposely avoided founding most of the religions because I'd rather let the AI spend a GP on the shrine and then conquer it later. I did grab Judaism and Confusionism via the CS path. Judaism was nice for initial city expansion + the bonus for organized religion but I don't like to found more than 2 myself usually. I just make each religion a big priority as soon as one of the AI gets it so I can beat them to the wonder. Then again that's how I missed Sistine Chapel... Oh well.

ALL of the GPs I popped got settled into my capitol except for the first priest (shrine) and the first scientist (academy). Most of them turned out to be engineers and man do I love engineers... The priests were really nice too once I got Ankor Wat.

The icing on the cake was when Ghandi told me I was his Idol and that I was everything he ever wanted to be. That was pretty funny.

[MasterDave]

The secret lives of the Inca: How to CS slingshot by 1600 BC on Monarch

I am amazed that you were able to build all of that stuff before the Oracle and still get the Oracle, even on Prince level. The Incas are one of my favorite races and I can very often pull off the CS slingshot on Monarch and sometimes Emperor (or multiplayer) using a variety of approaches. My overall goal is to have the Oracle built and Code of Laws researched by around 1500-1600 BC. Any later, and you risk losing it to the AI. Human players will sometimes build the Oracle even sooner. In order to do this, you generally need some terrain factor that improves commerce (tiles along a river will do, but an oasis, gold, silver, fur, or fishy resources are very helpful). In games where I lack any of those commerce improvers, I will do a quicker Oracle build and use it to learn code of laws (although metal casting could be a good alternative choice).

My typical build order is a bit different than yours. I usually let my city grow to size 3 before building workers and settlers. Tech order depends somewhat on the terrain and resources. In a typical game I will build two Quechas or so first (maybe three if I do not start with three food producing tiles), then a worker when the city hits size three, then a settler. Then depending on my progress toward code of laws, I will either build another worker, or will go right to the Oracle if I am close to code of laws. I will always try to coordinate my research and production to arrive on or near the same turn (chopping or moving tile laborers around to bolster commerce or production as needed).

My tech order for the Inca is typically this: Meditation (or Polytheism vs. the AI), Animal Husbandry, Mining, The Wheel, Pottery, Priesthood (generally I try to get Priesthood just in time to start the Oracle), writing, code of laws. If I have an exceptional commerce producer, like a gold mine, I will throw in Bronze working before going for writing. When the worker comes out, I will make his first project something to increase the speed of the settler production (usually a farm or pasture). After that the worker will make something that improves commerce (mine a gold, silver, or fur if one is around, otherwise start up cottages). With a gold mine or three cottages, I find that research is now fast enough to get code of laws by 1600 AD in most cases. My second city will generally build quechas while I am making the Oracle to fend off the human barbs that start showing up after 2000 BC.

This general strat and build order generally works with any race that has financial. Without Industrious, the Oracle takes about 5 turns longer to build, so the second worker is not often an option unless you have nice production. Without financial, it is much harder to learn Code of Laws on time using just cottages, and you are more reliant on getting lucky with a commerce resource near your capital (or in range of a second city perhaps).

[Cort Haus]

I assume that game you describe was not a CS Slingshot attempt because you're trying to do far too many things there. Four settlers, plus temple and granary before the Oracle is a lot of stuff. One settler, is probably more realistic. If you start with Stone then Great Wall & Pyramids is probably a better option anyway.

The only thing you really want to build for the CS Slingshot is a library, then hire two scientists to help you through CoL in time, building an Academy with the Gt Scienist. Don't go for any other religions as CoL will give you one - unless you start with Mysticism and want to give Buddhism a shot, seeing as you need that tech anyway. You can get to Writing either through the religion path (which you need for the Oracle) or via Animal Husbandry. The earlier the library, the faster CoL will come, and the faster the Oracle can be completed. I probably wouldn't go for BW either before CoL.

[Cort Haus]

Also - remember that the more cities you have, the slower your tech rate if you don't have the cash to defecit spend, so you wouldn't want to spam cities and research expensive tech at the same time.

[Cort Haus]

So we have two routes described so far to tech through CoL - commerce tile route and Library --> Academy route. Floodplains is good for the Pottery & Cottage approach.

The tricky thing I find usually is deciding which worker techs to sacrifice. Going for all of them takes too long, but too few and the capital will be working weak tiles.

[One_more_turn]

At Emperor level, you must build Oracle by 1200BC, and you have to beat a major barbarian surge around 1500BC.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by One_more_turn
At Emperor level, you must build Oracle by 1200BC, and you have to beat a major barbarian surge around 1500BC.

I managed it in my one game on Immortal level but think I finished it sometime around 1050BC. But I also had ideal resources in the capital and popped an obscene number of techs from huts.

At Emperor, I'm sure I've seen the Oracle finished around 1400 BC and before 2000 BC on Deity - so don't even try it there

[khumak]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I assume that game you describe was not a CS Slingshot attempt because you're trying to do far too many things there. Four settlers, plus temple and granary before the Oracle is a lot of stuff. One settler, is probably more realistic. If you start with Stone then Great Wall & Pyramids is probably a better option anyway.

I originally tried a very direct approach but didn't make it in time so I reloaded and the game I posted about was my result after I gave up the pure CS slingshot. I think my biggest problem was that aside from the fish/water tiles I had no natural commerce producing tiles in any of my first 4 cities (5th had gold). Almost everything had forests on them outside of my first city too so not much cottage building anywhere else until I can chop. Eventually this worked well but early in the game I just couldn't research as fast as the AI.

I did probably go a bit overboard on the settlers but I think I wound up better off for it anyway. I did notice that I had to ratchet down my research spending a bit, especially when I expanded to 5 cities until I got my cottages up and running. Food was really the only thing my 1st city had going for it though. I did make one attempt where I built 1 settler while researching writing and then went straight to the Oracle while building the library. I even skipped Fishing that time, although even with just 1 fish I think the commerce from the fish speeds up my research by more than the cost before I get to oracle.

I probably took too much time researching mining/Masonry/BW too but I guess I was trying to bite off too much for the CS Slingshot. I wanted the CS Slingshot + pyramids + Great Wall.

I guess I could try it without building any settlers but then I'd be stuck with conquest as my only way of growing because all 10 AIs were on the same continent with me and France started literally right next to me (almost exactly 1 city length away). Losing access to stone was not something I wanted to happen and that's the 2nd city site that France picks if I don't grab it.

The only thing you really want to build for the CS Slingshot is a library, then hire two scientists to help you through CoL in time, building an Academy with the Gt Scienist. Don't go for any other religions as CoL will give you one - unless you start with Mysticism and want to give Buddhism a shot, seeing as you need that tech anyway. You can get to Writing either through the religion path (which you need for the Oracle) or via Animal Husbandry. The earlier the library, the faster CoL will come, and the faster the Oracle can be completed. I probably wouldn't go for BW either before CoL.

Judaism is the earliest religion I could conceivable beat the AI to. I tried both of the earlier ones and the AI beats me to both. That's okay though, I don't really like founding more than 1 religion anyway. The only reason I want an early religion is for fat cross growth and for organized religion but poprushing makes organized religion somewhat redundant except for wonders anyway.

I guess I was just used to being able to grab more of the wonders on Noble and still pull of the slingshot. I'll have to stick to the important wonders on teh harder levels I guess.

[Thrak]

If you avoid masonry and either use priest specialists or stonehenge to generate a great prophet, then you can use him to grab code of laws and thereby build the oracle a lot earlier than normal (this obviously works best as phi).

I generally research bronzeworking too with this so chopping/pop rushing a settler and the oracle helps.

This lets you build the oracle reeeeally early. Really early.

Ofc you won't be doing the library part of the slingshot, but the extra hammers from CS should help kick that out asap.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by khumak
I probably took too much time researching mining/Masonry/BW too but I guess I was trying to bite off too much for the CS Slingshot. I wanted the CS Slingshot + pyramids + Great Wall.

As you move up the levels, you have to be more and more focused to beat the AI to the Oracle and get CoL researched in time. Trying to get the Pyramids & Gt Wall too is a definite no-no, unless they are attempted after the Oracle and under the high-hammer Bureaucracy (especially for IND with stone).

On Prince huge commerce tiles are not essential if you get a library and two scientists going asap, but the city should be on a river for all the 1 commerce.

For the easier CS sling, build Stonehenge, avoid Masonry, and either build the Oracle for CoL or research it at leisure and use the Prophet to lightbulb CS.

[khumak]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


As you move up the levels, you have to be more and more focused to beat the AI to the Oracle and get CoL researched in time. Trying to get the Pyramids & Gt Wall too is a definite no-no, unless they are attempted after the Oracle and under the high-hammer Bureaucracy (especially for IND with stone).

On Prince huge commerce tiles are not essential if you get a library and two scientists going asap, but the city should be on a river for all the 1 commerce.

For the easier CS sling, build Stonehenge, avoid Masonry, and either build the Oracle for CoL or research it at leisure and use the Prophet to lightbulb CS.

I tried a new approach tonight that seems to be working well. I had actually planned on going for a hard core military conquest strategy this time so I picked the Japanese for the Aggressive + Protective traits. I started in sort of a wierd area where my first city was in a pretty good spot and there was a nice spot for a second city that included cows, fish, gold, and corn so it would become useful very quickly. Aside from those 2 spots though everything else nearby was either tundra or jungle.

I figured I wouldn't get much out of additional cities past the first 2 with all that jungle/tundra so I decided to go for the CS Slingshot and just build up my first 2 cities while I power through the research tree to Samurai. This was on prince again although this method seems to be working well enough that I could move up at least 1 or 2 levels and still be okay I think.

My research path was pottery, mining, writing, mysticism, meditation, priesthood, COL, CS (free), Alphabet, BW, IW, Metal Casting, Machinery, etc. I traded CoL for most of the worker related techs I was missing + Poly/Mono.

I didn't have any copper initially but I did have iron so I started building swordsmen as soon as I hooked up the iron. The Inca's made a really bad move at this point and declared war on me. So I killed all of the units they invaded with and got to level up my swordsmen. I then used these to capture a few Inca cities. At this point the Incas relalized their mistake and gave me Masonry to call off the swordsmen.

So at this point the only unit I've lost is 1 swordsman and 1 archer. I look at how many turns it will take me to get Machinery and it's a bit more than it would take for me to build the pyramids so I figure what the hell. I build the pyramids and switch to representation. Then I start cranking out Samurai in my first city and Crossbowmen in my 2nd. I redirected my research towards cats/trebs but it turns out I didn't need them.

I'm playing a Terra map, it's about 800 AD and I've conquered most of my continent without losing a single unit (except for the 1 archer and 1 swordsman early on) and without any reloads. I've got a roaming band of Samurai conquers with warlords attached that is conquering everything in site. No need for cats to bombard the city first.

Leveled samurai are so powerful compared to strength 6 defenders that I rarely even take much damage even against cities on hills. Half of my samurai have cover, half of them half shock, all of them have CR 1-3, and they're all working on various stages of Combat/Drill. The ones with warlords also have Leadership. I also have a spearman with medic 3 running around with them so healing to full after conquering a city usually takes 1 or 2 turns.

The beauty of starting with the CS slingshot for this strategy is that I got Samurai early enough that the first 6-10 cities were defended by lowly archers. Samurai chew through those like butter. By the time the AI had axemen and swordsmen my samurai already had shock + CR 3 so the AI had nothing that could even inflict any casualties on my samurai.

My research ground to a halt as I continued my advance because I had to drop my research spending to 10% but by now it doesn't matter. I just discovered Engineering but I haven't bothered to build any cats or trebs yet because I haven't needed any.

I think this is one of the few cases where I'd rather drop a warlord on a unit rather than stick him in my unit pump city as a trainer. I'm having trouble building crossbowmen fast enough to garrison the cities I conquer.

[Tokyo Sexwale]

It also depends on how many Civs you're playing against. It's much easier on a standard map with 7 civs than a large with 10 or 11... someone always seems to grab the Oracle early on those games.

For me, I can do the slingshot about 60% of the time on Prince with a large map, but only about 10-20% of the time on Monarch.

[Cort Haus]

Very true, TS. The same goes for grabbing the early religions - it gets harder with more civs, as I've just found in a rare foray with large maps.

[Cort Haus]

Khumak - good to see it worked out for you with the Japanese.

Did you have an academy in your capital?

[khumak]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Khumak - good to see it worked out for you with the Japanese.

Did you have an academy in your capital?

Not for quite awhile, no. It takes so long to build the library on marathon that I have to pop rush it for it to even finish by the time I want to start building the oracle so there's no way I could have an academy in place in time for it to be any help researching COL. I wound up getting a priest first which gave me a shrine. Then my next 2 cities needed full production building axemen to fend off barbarians so my 2nd GP was an engineer (from pyramids).

Getting a 3rd GP based entirely on the 6 GP points from 2 scientists takes well over 100 turns (the 2nd would have cost 100). So I actually wound up getting one by pure chance after I built the great library (2 free scientists). I never bothered devoting any people to being scientist specialists until my main city hit the pop cap.

Too bad there aren't any Aggressive/Charismatic civs. That would just be pure ownage. Charismatic is definitely far more powerful than Aggressive if you're planning on protecting your core group of conquerer units because it makes high numbers of promotions much cheaper. Aggressive is better if you're planning a zerg style attack where everything is expendable.

I tried messing around with Trebs a bit and one thing I'm having trouble with is trying to get them enough exp that they can survive a fight. They can easily crush an archer inside a city but they get slaughtered by Longbowman or Crossbowman unless the treb has CR3 plus at least combat 1. To reliably survive against a longbowman/crossbowman a treb needs CR3 plus at least combat 3.

I'm thinking I might try my next game with an imperialist Civ and focus on building the great wall for a total of 200% to warlord generation. Ideal civ to do this with would be a Char/Imp for the cheap promotions + warlord xp to create some seriously badass conquerers. Not sure if any civs have that combo. Agg/Imp would be almost as good.