Problems with my neighbours walls

[couerdelion]

I was running smoothly through a game yesterday and noticed that my neighbour, Toku had finished the Great Wall. Checking the map it was a little helpful to me because it game me some indication of where his cities were.

But the real surprise came later when a number of barbarian axemen appeared on my borders. It was almost as if they were being funnelled towards me because they all turned up in one short burst and, with the exception of one unit, all in the same area.

I tend to expect to have a few barbarians axemen appearing but I don’t recall them all appearing at around the same time. Over the course of 5 or 6 turns, I had 5 or 6 axemen walk into my lands and this was by 700 BC. There wasn’t even an archer or warrior amongst them.

Is this very normal or perhaps just a little unfortunate? I will have to remember this for next time I find my neighbour with the Great Wall

[rah]

When your neighbor has the great wall, this can happen easily.
If the wall is blocking you from the main part of the land mass and a spawning location is on the same side as you, you will see everything.

[Willem]

I just had a game where I built the Great Wall and I kept seeing all these Barbs going from the far side of my empire over to the Mongolian's. Since they couldn't attack me, they keep right on going to the next nearest target. So yes, it perfectly normal. You're getting barbs from the other side of Toku's empire, which would normally be attacking him.

[couerdelion]

I'm rather expecting to see more barbs with the wall and I normally expect to see one of two axemen by 1000 BC without its influence. But I don't expect half a dozen axemen 700 BC and certainly not all arriving together.

[Tattila the Hun]

"Hey, there's Tzengis. How's the horde doing?"
"Fine, fine. Say, what are you people camping here about?"
"Well, that buggerit wall there keeps us from raiding the rich lands behind. We're trying to figure out a way to pass it... I think we need cannons... "
"But why don't you just give the wall a finger, and head for the next unsuspecting, fat civilization?"
"..."
"Come on, it's only a few days march from here... I brought the beer?"
"Yay!"

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
"Hey, there's Tzengis. How's the horde doing?"
"Fine, fine. Say, what are you people camping here about?"
"Well, that buggerit wall there keeps us from raiding the rich lands behind. We're trying to figure out a way to pass it... I think we need cannons... "
"But why don't you just give the wall a finger, and head for the next unsuspecting, fat civilization?"
"..."
"Come on, it's only a few days march from here... I brought the beer?"
"Yay!"

Strange really when you come to say it like this. It's not when the barbs get cannons that the Wall is obsoleted but when the nation who owns the walls gets the cannon.

Go figure

[mkorin]

Originally posted by couerdelion


Strange really when you come to say it like this. It's not when the barbs get cannons that the Wall is obsoleted but when the nation who owns the walls gets the cannon.

Go figure

The wall is never obsoleted. I've seen it working well into the industrial age.

[Tattila the Hun]

A city wall, I think, becomes obsolete with gunpowder, some with castle.

Of course, in earlier games, The Great Wall was obsoleted by gunpowder.

[Blaupanzer]

In Civ IV the GW is not obsoleted, apparently even on another continent or island from the one on which it was built. In the new world kind of settings, the GW owner has the extreme advantage of not being harrassed by the well-established barbs on the new world part of the map. These barbs get channeled to his/her neighbors, who get pounded as a result.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
A city wall, I think, becomes obsolete with gunpowder, some with castle.

Of course, in earlier games, The Great Wall was obsoleted by gunpowder.

OK but my point was that it should be when your rivals get gunpowder that the defensive bonuses of walls are lost.

[Willem]

Originally posted by couerdelion


OK but my point was that it should be when your rivals get gunpowder that the defensive bonuses of walls are lost.

They do. The defensive bonuses for Walls are attached to the units themselves, not some tech level that has to be reached. So as soon as anyone has a Musketman or above, each individual unit ignores the defensive bonus of any fortifications in a city.

[Krumpet]

Which units are Musketman or above? Are cavalry above musketmen? WHat about knights, they have more hit points. When I take my cavalry unit and right click on an enemy city, it includes the fortifications for the enemy calculation. Try right clicking, it also includes the enemy fortifications for tanks and Navy Seals, I have tried it, and these units are probably above Musketmen. So the game is telling me that these units do not get the gunpowder bonus. But I have never seen it give the bonus, because all the units I have tried attacking with show enemy fortifications in the probability calculation.

[Solver]

Cavalry are "above" Mustkemen, Knights aren't. There's a little bit of a messy moment in the manual and documentation.

The wall/castle defensive bonus doesn't matter against gunpowder-based units. That is, not only units that are classed as Gunpowder (Riflemen, Musketmen, Infantry), but also other post-Gunpowder units (Cavalry, Tanks, etc.). If it doesn't make much sense, consider this - to build, say, Cavalry, you need the Gunpowder technology anyway. So, all units that require Gunpowder, directly or indirectly, ignore the wall/castle bonus.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Krumpet
But I have never seen it give the bonus, because all the units I have tried attacking with show enemy fortifications in the probability calculation.

Are you sure that it shows fortification bonuses and not just cultural ones? The higher the culture of a city is, so too is it's defence capability. If you look in the unit XML file, you'll see a line that determines whether a unit ignores Walls/Castles. Any unit built after a civ researchs Gunpowder ignores them.

[Krumpet]

Originally posted by Willem


Are you sure that it shows fortification bonuses and not just cultural ones? The higher the culture of a city is, so too is it's defence capability. If you look in the unit XML file, you'll see a line that determines whether a unit ignores Walls/Castles. Any unit built after a civ researchs Gunpowder ignores them.

That might be what it is. I was unaware of the cultural defense capability. Is it possible to bombard and reduce this type of defense?