Equating Food / Production / Commerce

[Stickyman]

I'm sure that this has been covered before, so I offer my apologies to those I offend.

For sake of discussion, do we have a consensous?

1 food = 1 hammer = 2 coin

Thank you,

[Jaybe]

No, I am not part of any such consensus.

Rush costs = 3 gold times hammers remaining (for non-wonders, with production already started).

In Warlords, producing wealth/research/culture in a city = net amount of hammers after production enhancers; wealth/research/culture multipliers are NOT considered.

Food is equivalent to hammers only for the case of building settlers or workers. In Warlords, civ leaders with imperialist trait get 50% production benefit for settlers, but the multiplier applies only to hammers, not to food.

I am sure there are several other examples, but food, hammers, commerce & gold are not equivalent. They are separate considerations, and that adds to the game.

[Yosho]

Also, the relitive value of the three changes dramatically based on the city, the situation, the goal, what you're trying to do, ect.

You can usually change one to the other, either by changing improvements, moving workers around, or more direct means like rushing production or pop rushing or building cash directly, ect, but the rate at which you can do so changes greatly depending on when in the game you are and what resources you have avalable. Sometimes 1 more food is worth more then 3 hammers; sometimes food is almost irrelevent in a certain city for a certain period of time.

[darrelljs]

I did an analysis in this thread. I used the values given by specialist and settled great persons to set up a system of linear equations and found that 4 food = 3 hammer = 2 beakers = 2 gold = 1 culture (approximately). To properly valuate commerce you need to take into account what multipliers are in place (e.g from buildings or civics). I did the analysis more for fun than anything else, in reality you need to select the tiles to work based on the game situation. For examle, food is clearly most valuable early and less valuable after you've hit the happiness cap (at which point you need just enough to prevent starvation).

Darrell

[Blake]

I use the following rating in the early game:
1 food = 2 hammer = 2.5 commerce

It is clearly not the case that 1 food = 1 hammer, since for example you can use the whip to get up to 3 hammers per food, and when you compare a grassland hill mine (-1 food, +3 hammers) with a farmed grassland (+1 food) you see that hammers are relatively more abundant.

A plains hill mine is -2 food, +4 hammer - this is basically where I get 1 food = 2 hammer from. You can always turn a grassland farm (+1 food surplus) into 2 hammers via a mine, or the whip.

Converting food to commerce is more complicated partly because the default sources of commerce (coast and cottage) actually feed themselves. The value of commerce is more in the utility of commerce, much of your commerce will also be consumed in various upkeeps which makes surplus commerce even more precious. If you look at tile surplus:
Farm: 1-0-0
Town: 0-0-4
You could be led to believe that 1 food = 4 commerce. But the better comparison is probably with coast, since both farm and coat tiles are fairly marginal.
Coast: 0-0-2

But again it's less a matter of comparison and more a matter of utility - commerce has a value largely independent of the value of hammers. The only conversion is via wonder refunds, which starts at 1h:1g, and gets as high as 1h:2.5g under the right circumstances.


Lets use this rating system
1 Food = 2 hammers = 2.5 Commerce
f = 1
h = 0.5
c = 0.4

All tiles start at -2 due to the food eaten by the workforce, if you please, instead of starting tiles at -2, you can start them at -2.2, this is because in a mid sized empire, each population results in about +0.5g upkeep (city and civic) so that -0.5g is worth -0.2 points.

For example, the basic terrain types:
Grassland = -0.2
Plains = -0.7
Tundra = -1.2

You should prefer a poke in the eye with a sharp stick over working anything worse than Grassland River (+0.2). Unimproved grassland, river plains. The sight of these things being worked should whip you into a lashing frenzy.

It gets more complicated when you consider cottages (they grow) and the "Value of Food:Hammer conversion", for example accoring to my rating system, a Plains Hill Mine is worth -0.2 - it is in fact worthless. This is true, you should not work a 4h tile unless you need the food to hammer conversion "service" - I guess all that I can say is if you need that service, you need it. When possible use whipping every 10 turns, but you might need more production than that, or might not be able to run slavery.

For cottages, this is more of a feel thing. I've seen it suggested that a cottage/hamlet under development raises the value of that tile by +2c, which seems reasonable enough.

The complication of Multipliers.
Firstly multipliers do not effect the relative value of Food vs Hammers, you still need 2 food to work a mine, regardless of multipliers. What really makes sense is relative multipliers and here is how I suggest doing it. Take the Heroic Epic city, which has a +100% hammer multiplier. Since this city has 2x the production multiplier of other cities, you should devalue commerce proportionally in that city, the raw value of commerce becomes 0.2. This should tend to preserve sanity better than trying to figure out how to make out how a high-hammer yield tile can be useful without food to work it.
To be more specific, use a "Ratio of ratios", for example if all cities have a library and forges, that doesn't mean that commerce and hammers are both +25% more valuable in your empire - you still need both equally along with food. However if one city has only a library, and another has only a forge, then those cities have a comparative advantage in commerce and hammers respectively. Comparative Advantage is an economic concept and it actually makes sense in CIV. In CIV it does often make sense ot build everything everywhere and thus the ratio is the same for every city except for National Wonders, but it can make sense to have unit pumps with no commerce multipliers.

Note that ALL cities have production via whipping, take a grassland city with pigs and cottages. This city actually has a +6 food surplus, which becomes ~12hpt via whipping. Thus this city actually does have quite high production, plenty enough to build all the commerce multiplier buildings.

[Blake]

Okay then to further justify the ratings I've given.

Take a grassland farm, 3-0-0. What does this let you do? It'll let you work a grassland mine, +3 hammers, or it'll let you create half a specialist, which isn't so good. Or it could let you work half a plains cottage, ~1h 2c - but we know cottages are good.

Okay then, lets take a look at alternatives. Coast. 2-0-2, I think I would usually work the farm in favor of the coast, since that food does become 2h. I might work the coast if I really do want that commerce.
But what about Fin Coast? 2-0-3. You know I think I'd usually rather that coast, unless I really want the food for production (like it's the Heroic Epic city). So I think that 1 food = 2.5c is about right - 2.5c is halfway between coast and grassland coast.
Also in terms of pure commerce, the desert inscence (0-0-5) is about the minimum pure-commerce tile I'd work - as in an alternative to that poke in an eye with a sharp stick (or a bloody good lashing of the population point, as it may be). So the 0-0-5 should score a "0" or slighty above.

Production:
Take a city built to claim desert iron, improved that tile will be 4h. Do I work it? No. Not usually. The city being desert is probably low in food. I'll only work it if I really need those hammers - as "conversion".
But what about a 5h tile? I think I'd want to find some way to work it nearly full time. 6h tile? Definitely.

2h tile: Never. Ever.
3h tile: In desperation (ie no slavery, no alternatives).
3h+1c tile: It's okay.
4h: A tolerable alternative to slavery but I'm probably only really going to work it for wonders.
4h+1c: Now we're talking.
5h: I'll try and work it most of the time since it's a bit better than slavery.
6h: It makes me cry if I can't work it due to lack of food.

I think my rating is more like 1f = 1.8h, altough due to rounding most of the time it's the same as 1f = 2h. It's just that a tile which rates as -0.2 might actually be 0.

So I'll say that 1f = 1.8 h = 2.5c.

[couerdelion]

My standard conversion is 1f = 2h = 3g for valuing tiles. I'll read through Blake's comments first before I expand on this since it's likely that he will have some points that could alter my view.

The important thing is to remember that it is city/civ dependent and to know the factors influencing the rates you use.

They are never fixed!!

My first comment on Blake’s response is that it has all the important messages and I cannot violently disagree with any of the conclusions. My 1f=2h=3c makes me more neutral with regards to the Fin Coast vs Non-River Farm tile and I cannot remember when I last worked a desert incense tile.

First, we are talking here specifically about food, hammers and commerce generated by city workers. We could also add to this beakers, gold, culture and GPP and we have the full array of worker options to value one way or another. But the important thing is that we are looking at a “pre-multiplier” figure. The multipliers affect the city’s comparative advantage which will affect some of the “exchange rates” at a local level and others also at a “global” level.

The first thing to note is that food and hammers are local while commerce is global. The game does not care where you produce your beakers and gold (which starts as commerce) but it does care greatly about where you produce food, culture, GPP and, to a large extent hammers.

The hammer:food conversion rate is largely whip-related as Blake says. This factor is dependent on city size and whether or not the city has a granary. At size 12 with a granary it is 1 food = 2.8 hammers falling to 1 food = 2 hammers at size 4. The conversion formula is, more precisely 30 hammers = (11+ city size) food so although we’ve left the 2:1 ratio after growing beyond size 4, even at size 10, we can generate hammers from food at a 10:7 ratio. But note also that this is a minimum value of food relative to hammers. Other factors like what we can use the extra population point may make the rate higher.

The “rate of conversion” of commerce works at a global level and here we can confuse matters greatly by introducing a whole range of multipliers and science sliders. I tend to get round this problem by assuming the broad equivalence of city specialists (Settled Great People are too rare a commodity on which to base this formulae). Ignoring priests, you get 2h=3b=3g=6x (x = culture, c = commerce) and if we can derive from this a broadly equal value for beakers and gold then we can ignore the slider question completely since

b = g

Commerce * c = Commerce * [slider % * b + (1-slider%) * g]

=> Commerce * c = Commerce * g
=> c = g
=> 2h = 3c (since 2h = 3g)

I would also reiterated Blake’s comments about maintaining a certain sense of proportion in situations. For example, we’ve put a very low value on culture. However, if we have a new city (captured) with many resources in the fat-cross, the first 10 culture points can be very valuable – more so than a mere 5 gold. Likewise, if we apply the relations above, we can come to the conclusion that there is always something better for a worker to do than for it to build a cottage. In this last case I have tended to ignore the result and built cottages where they are best suited anyway (cities designed to use commerce). Maybe the h=0.5, c=0.4 will give a slightly more favourable view of the value of building cottages but I still like the simpler 2h = 3c for now.

[Blake]

And then there is Beakers vs Gold vs Culture.

Well Beakers and Gold are both means to the same end - research, or fueling research. It's completely meaningless to say that beakers are worth more than gold or vice-verca, unless you actually run 100% science, then gold has only the marginal value of unit upgrades and buying stuff. I suppose if you're stuck (really stuck) at 0% science then science has little value either. But these are special cases, normally gold and science can be converted to one another via the slider.

When it comes to one-or-the-other (scientist vs merchant) It is ENTIRELY a question of comparative advantage, if the city has higher than average ratio of science to gold multipliers, then scientist, otherwise merchant. As a rule of thumb this means make Scientists in cities with Academies or Oxfords, and Merchants in all other cities (Especially Wallstreet). However specialists have such low yield it hardly matters - they are more about the great person.

The value of gold multiplier vs science multiplier depends entirely on your average slider setting, if it's 50% they are exactly equal, otherwise it's multiplier% x slider%, for example if you run average of 70% science, then a University is +17.5%, while a bank is +15% - the University is a better build. Furthermore you can multiply that %age by the cost of the building, to decide on things like University vs Marketplace.

The value of things like city-sack bonus and gold from trade depends on sliders - if you have a low gold multiplier, then gold from multiplier-independent sources is relatively more valuable. The best example of this is Merchant cash bomb, which is best used when you are running a mean lean research economy - with very little gold multiplier. In contrast the cash bomb will be eaten up mostly meaninglessly in the economy of a large empire with +100% gold multipliers everywhere, presumably for a large empire a Golden Age is a better choice.

Generally speaking, larger empires have lower slider settings - therefore generally speaking gold multipliers are more valuable for larger empires. Strategically, it is no coincidence that the gold multipliers are on the warfare branch (Guilds), there is exceptional synergy between expansion through conquest and the guilds techline, enough synergy to massively outweigh the benefit of Liberalism (the reward for the peaceful branch).

Culture is non-comparable, you either want to have "Enough" to pop borders or win a border struggle of some kind, or "As much as you can get!". Since the value is entirely dependent on context I'm not really going to bother assigning a point value.

[fed1943]

Blake:

In your first post the value of Plains= -1,3 is it a mistake?

It looks should be (-2,2+1+0,5)= -0,7.

Can you tell, please?

Best regards,

[Blake]

Originally posted by fed1943
In your first post the value of Plains= -1,3 is it a mistake?

It looks should be (-2,2+1+0,5)= -0,7.

Yeah just a mistake, I fixed it. Altough the point remains that the value of these tiles is only in the improvements built on them, or keeping the bodies warm until they're whipped to death.

Originally posted by couerdelion
My 1f=2h=3c makes me more neutral with regards to the Fin Coast vs Non-River Farm tile and I cannot remember when I last worked a desert incense tile.

Ah the good old desert incense.
Under my rating the tile is worth -0.2.

I think the thing is it provides a "Food:Commerce" conversion - and as we know from hammers, a service of this nature can be valuable by itself. The thing is by nature a desert incense tile will be worked by a city in a desert - with poor food, this is an unlikely candidate for wanting to perform a food:commerce conversion (especially since commerce is global), and in any case we are used to getting commerce "for free". I don't believe my evaluation is invalidated as I am confident that I would at least sometimes work a desert incense in favor of a 2-0-0 tile - if it somehow made sense to do so and bearing in mind that working such a tile will only be transient as it is indeed a negative value tile - think of it as a decent place to put a worker while they are waiting to die by the whip, or if I can't whip and the city is capped.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Blake

I don't believe my evaluation is invalidated as I am confident that I would at least sometimes work a desert incense in favor of a 2-0-0 tile - if it somehow made sense to do so and bearing in mind that working such a tile will only be transient as it is indeed a negative value tile - think of it as a decent place to put a worker while they are waiting to die by the whip, or if I can't whip and the city is capped.

I'm not sure that either evaluation is invalidated. my general rate simply places a 17% lower value on commerce relative to hammers and food but I do not strictly apply the conversion rate as a determinant of city worker placement/worker tile improvement and I doubt that you do either with the 1/.5/.4 rates. I guess I'm just less likely to work the commerce ones.

Let’s take desert incense as our example for our citizen condemned for future dedication to the services of the nation. Either it is 2/0/0 or 0/0/5. If there are condemned then we can view the question as a choice between hammers and commerce. Then the question is one of city size and very quickly our food/hammer conversion rate starts to fall so that the 2 food may only be worth 3 hammers. At a hammer/commerce conversion rate of 2:3, the 0/0/5 tile wins over the 0/3/0 tile anyway.

No, the reason why I will not be working incense tiles as a matter of course is because there are other things for my worker to do. The last time I have plenty of 2/0/3, 2/1/0 and 1/3/0 tiles to work. But even without these I may also use a specialist which provides either beakers or gold and GPP (and maybe bonuses with Sistine and Representation). It’s simply rare for the worker not to have something better to do.

What's more I can't imagine a situation where I would have the choice of incense of unimproved grassland

[Cort Haus]

For me, the value of a yield type is city-specific and dependent on multipliers and caps. So, a new city for a mature empire with large happy caps can whip and whip and whip - so food is the only thing that matters. In my Oxford City, commerce, or specifically beakers are the most important.

For the general case there is probably a consensus that whipping makes food more valuable than hammers. In which case, the post Rep Parts windmill is a better improvement than a pre-RR mine.