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  • #16
    Warriors will switch automatically to spears not axemen so won't help if you need some insurance against Barbs [EDIT - But Vel beat me to it ]. But here I'd tend to drift towards Chariots (with Warlords) although I now know that leaving a chariot across a water as a bait for a barb axemen won't work as well as you might hope - the small print in the rules only give the +100% when you attack

    I'm still of the view that the big benefit of a part-build is early game insurance and I've sort of convinced myself of this after I got a visit from said barbs just after my neighbour - Mr "Happy" Tokugawa - finished building a wall to keep them all out.

    There I took on role of Mr Bilbo Baggins playing host to a small band of axe-wielding dwarves. In the end I rushed two archers and a chariot and saw off the threat. They managed to destroy two roads and a horse pasture – thankfully I had another – but at least some of the whipping saved me a city despite the fact that I had to live with low population growth for some time to avoid unhappiness. In truth, two of the units that I whipped were not part-builds but started at the “time of trouble”

    Could I have done this without the part-built unit(s)? I would have immediately switched to units when I saw the forces coming my way anyway so it’s arguable that I simply got my archer defender in St Petersburg one turn early. But that’s +5% defence of the city. And it was hardly my fault that the axemen who attacked my archer did so across a river. It all boils down to whether the x hammer “insurance premium” – in this case it was 1h – is worth paying for the chance that you would need a +5% defence. In reality if you "make a claim" on the insurance, you get the premium back too so in a strange way, you pay the premium only if you don't need the insurance.

    As far as degrading goes I have some confusing conclusions here but it generally seems to follow 10 turns after the time when the unit is first relegated down the build queue. Adding production to the unit at this stage does not “reset the timer” – I don’t even think it shifts it back one turn! In fact, I’ve wondered if it does this even if the unit is on zero hammers but still sitting in the queue. For this reason, I have usually taken the empty unit from the build queue and added another if I wanted to keep another unit in reserve. To be honest, these observations are from an Epic game so it seems that there is a small flaw in the Standard/Epic conversion here. One would assume that 10 turns (Standard) = 15 turns (Epic) but, like the Golden Age, it seems this adjustment was missed here.

    Looking at the possibility of linking this with a Pacifist civic approach, I’ll adopt a more macro approach to giving the savings per unit as 1.7gpt. In any case, this will be done for several units and the idea of considering if the marginal unit is a “free” one is much too micro-level.

    With this cost there are two areas to consider: those when the unit is degrading and those where it is a state prior to degrading.

    Now here the degrading costs are not so bad because, even though we lose 1hpt, we also save 1.7gpt. And that’s a good thing if we follow my rough exchange rate for hammers and gold. In fact, it might seem that a good way to build up an offensive army while running Pacifism is to part-build a whole series of units (leaving them one-turn to complete) across your civilisation and then finish them in consecutive turns. You might even consider switching to the Theocracy civic just before you churn out your army if the anarchy costs can be justified by the size of the army you send. Though I would perhaps allow for two turns of anarchy if you expect to switch back.

    Then there is the cost of “part-building” before degrading. If we assume that a unit is part-built (x hammers) and left to degrade to y hammers then the cost to us is (x-y) hammers = 3(x-y)/2 gold. Our gold saving is 17gold + 1.7(x-y) gold.

    Total gain => 17 gold + 0.2(x-y) gold

    which is maximised when x is highest and y = 0. The maximum saving for an archer is 17 gold + 4.8 gold. For an axeman it is 23.8 gold.

    So is THIS an early game strategy?

    It definitely looks to pay off a reasonable return if used every so often when the civilisation is small. But then again, even with a larger civilisation, there’ll simply be more cities so the saving will cover a much larger cross-section of units. Even there this will provide a significant benefit to Pacifist civs whether they are preparing for war or simply insuring against it.

    The one big omission here is that there may be important buildings that we are not building. Here it’s all in the “price” of hammers and gold. In some cities, hammers may be at a premium since a building there may be very important. If they become worth more than 1.7 gold each then by all means switch to building something useful and productive. But bear in mind that you will also want to be adopting this exchange rate when selecting tiles (eg a 2/2/1 tile is better than a 2/0/4 tile).

    Further consideration here could be given to the impact that Heroic Epic would have on this Pacifists “military spam” approach. I am, for example suspicious that the decay rate may be linked to production bonuses too.

    Also, I recognised that there is the hidden cost that not having units might have on the likelihood that you will be targeted as weak. Here, it is better to pay 1.7gpt if this means that 20 enemy units stay off your land (and perhaps you may also lose valuable trade with your new enemy). So even if you are running Pacifism, I would take pains to make sure that you do not stray too far down the power graph.

    Now, who’s going to play out this to see if it works?

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    • #17
      Love this game... but thats too much micromanagement for me to handle.
      DONT MAKE BANANA ANGRY !

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      • #18
        Here's an option that may not bee to much micro and a little bit of gain, sort of a take-off of the pre-build.

        You know you're gonna grow but you hate the thought of not producing anything for that long (especially in the begining)? Semi-build your settler. Go two or three turns working on the settler and then switch to a spear. When he's done (or at 9 turns) switch back for a turn or two, then back to another spear. Yeah it'll take "longer" to get the settler out but not the collection of units (3 units at 10 turns a piece it's just how you split up the turns). And you don't just sit not doing anything.

        Or, maybe more related is a worker and grainery. Then they show up around the same time as each other and you don't sit waiting, one for the other.

        Or is this just crap? I'm trying to find a way to spread around the build cost of a settler/worker. I know one thing that drives me nuts about them is they bring my city to a grinding halt. But I also find myself with little to build at certain points (once you finish all the early game buildings and have nothing but warriors or axes to build for like 30 turns).

        Hmmm, I think it sounds like a good idea but it doesn't work out as well. With no maintenance to avoid why not just build the darn thing and get it over with?

        Tom P.

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        • #19
          Settlers and workers in the early game tend to be high return investments so you often want them out of the door as soon as you can. Often the only reason you'll want to delay them is where you need some escort but I would think you'd just build this first then do the settler because the city might also grow while the unit is being built.

          Probably.....

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          • #20
            It's a good idea but with the way I play it would only give a financial benefit if I had the pacifist civic on. I don't tend to have a military that is large enough to cost me cash unless I'm building an invasion force.

            I do like the idea of baiting the enemy though. If I'm bordering someone that I want to attack but don't want to take the diplo hit with their friends, keeping a tiny military (with a partbuilt unit in each city) could tempt them to attack, especially if you make some "arrogant demands" to rile them up more. Switching to Theocracy the turn they attack and when you create all the units would be nice too, definitely if playing as a spiritual civ.

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            • #21
              Switching to Theocracy the turn they attack and when you create all the units would be nice too, definitely if playing as a spiritual civ.
              That's interesting - by the time someone attacks you, both vassalage and theocracy could be available and barracks built in most cities, so you get 8xp unit right out of the box.
              -- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
              -- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.

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              • #22
                Now I’ve also got to think about the “maximum” benefit that a Pacifist civ can get being through almost completing a build and then letting it decay to nothing and realised that this is somehow an absurd notion. Formulaically it seems correct but the conclusion that it reaches is that you will somehow “gain” by wasting production on units that you will never build.

                Top marks to everyone who spotted this deliberate error

                What it should have concluded is that units may benefit us more by staying unbuilt for longer and we might even allow units to decay if we do not need them immediately but it should not have been suggesting that you throw hammers away.

                There are therefore two purposes that I can see for the part-build. The first, which for me has compelling arguments, is the insurance unit. One that can be rapidly built in times of temporary emergency.

                The second is part of war preparations under a pacifist civic where the costs of the war would include a significant military cost before you are even ready to begin the war. But all these units will be built so the question is simply how quickly they are built and how much do we have to pay while they are being built.

                Let’s suppose we are dealing with a classical war and we want 4 catapults, 5 swordsmen, 2 axes, 2 spears and 2 chariots (all built from scratch). By my reckoning that’s 550 production.

                Let’s assume we have about 25 hammers per turn production towards this military build up so the whole thing will take 22 turns to put together. If we were producing 12 base GPP/turn before then this 22 turns would produce an extra 264 GPP under Pacifism. That’s big enough for us to want to keep Pacifism for a few turns yet s let’s just build everything in sequence. We’ll conveniently allow all this production to be in one city.

                This will give us the units in turns 3, 5,6,8,9,11,13,14,16,17,19,20,21,22,23
                This will then incur costs for 21,19 etc turns so and the total upkeep costs (1.7gpt) would be 260 gold.

                By part-building 7 catapults and swords in the first 7 turns we can then build all 15 units in consecutive turns for a cost of 204 gold – a reasonable saving of 56 gold over 22 turns!!

                There is then the option of converting to Theocracy after turn 7 which delays our attack by one turn but gives all 15 units 2 XP. I think the extra experience here justifies a one-turn delay. It also saves us at least 120 gold in military costs but loses us 180 GPP.

                The switch to Theocracy will be calculated at some stage based on the comparative benefits of Military Experience and cost savings versus the GPP generated under Pacifism. But if we assume that the extra experience is worth about 20-40% of the value of the unit then we can place a value on the Theocracy bonus at 110-220 hammers.
                We can certainly estimate the value of the GPP generated so the comparison is one of GPP versus gold + hammers so could make up some rule which would give us an optimum time to switch. In reality, we’d probably time the switch just after generating a GP so it may not be that all the units get the extra XP. In this case, we’d plan the build path to make sure that the lower experience hit the units that least needed it (say Catapults, Spears, Chariots).

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