So I'm thinking about writing....

[Cort Haus]

I've had a couple of shots at Vel's Genghis methodology, and good fun it was too.

The first time I turned out alone on a small continent, which was a good example of a PBBR (Plan B Bail-out Requirement). Obviously the sooner the solitude is determined, the better, as a Library is probably a higher priority than anything on such a start. Yes it's nice to have four axemen early on to deal with barbs ahead, but probably not optimal when non-raging. A possible rule-of-thumb might be that if you get to pop a third hut, and you're some distance from home, there's probably no AI out there, as they seem to hoover them up so quickly.

The second time was more suitable - two near neighbours and copper half way between me and Ragnor. The copper site even had a plains hill next to it. Perfect, in fact. I usually send the defender off in advance of the settler anyway, but as this time there were convenient hills every two tiles between the border and the city site to park the archers on, it felt like a ready-made tutorial for Vel's 'recipe'.

I'd like to try it again with warriors instead of archers, as I think it was a well-made point by Dom about AGG warriors, and I feel a lot happier with medic warriors and scouts than medic axemen. What I did do in this game is what I always do and never promote a unit before I have too. Unless I anticipate an attack on that unit I like to promote it at the moment it is used. Even fortified units don't lose their footing and fort' bonus if promoted. The exception is healing, of course, and in this game promotions turned out as a valuable alternative to having a medic.

As my first Axe was snuffling round the enemy borders looking for a worker it found a Settler+Spear on flat ground, on their way to build Ragnor's third city. Next turn I was able to strike, but a warrior joined the group. I hit the archer anyway, as it was an easy win + promo, and the second city was just to the north and guarded by only one warrior.

Normally when I rush I like to arrive unnanounced with six axes, but Vel's method suggested four axes, arriving one-by-one to choke, after an initial worker-grab. I didn't get a worker with the DoW, but I was able to remove the archer-escort to a settler, and then take their second city which was only guarded by a single warrior (and a worker). The settler-warrior escaped to found a very-well sited city just north of my capital with horses.

So my first Axe was guarding the small city I took, and by the time four could close on their capital, there were three Archers in there. By the time I got six Axes on site they had four Archers, and when my eighth Axe arrived on-site, defender number five was born. Meanwhile I was choking their Cow & Stone, plus several of their forests, but I would have needed over 10 units to choke all their viable tiles, and that wouldn't be 10 units able to hit the city in one turn.

I was about to call my attempt a failure, as I clearly couldn't deliver the 2:1 without having over a dozen axes there (and I should be able to do this with four, right?) when I thought I'd give it a shot anyway, just for the experience. Of the five defending archers, one had Garrison, two had Combat 1, and two had nothing. Most had five turns of fort'.

If I hadn't had the AGG trait, it would really have been hopeless, but those little Combat 1 stars open up Shock and Cover. Assuming two thumps per defender are needed, it occurred to me at that point that as a general principle against Archers, the first, sacrificial unit should get Cover, and the second, decisive unit should get City Raider. Previously, I had gone with Cover for all attackers, as the bonus is higher, but long-term, having too many Axes/Maces/Grens with Cover is a bit of a downer as more Melee, then GPowder units appear and eventually Bows fade from the scene.

Anyway, my first Cover Axe died without even inflicting 0.01% of a scratch on the defender. 7 Axes vs 5 Archers. The second Cover Axe then killed the Unscratchable One outright. The next six battles went as expected, ending with 3 injured Axes vs 2 injured Archers. Next turn, and its City Raider II promos to the rescue for (partial) insta-healing, giving my three Axes enough oomph to finish off the two damaged defenders.

btw - I couldn't use a medic as first I needed the battle-promos, and second my units were all round the city choking it, so the survivors were dispersed.

Great fun, but not what it said in the recipe book. So where did I go wrong? How can I get only two defenders in the AI capital so that the four Axes is enough? Sometimes they'll come out to chase a worker, but this is a tricky lure if I've got my hands round the city's throat to deny tile access. Even if they get the chance, I don't know if they always come out to play.

I did a bit of pop+chop on the early Axes, though when you have three mined hills in the capital, and a 5h hammer on the copper it seems best to make use of these, and after some initial pop-rushing I wanted to start working those cottages. Gotta think ahead, right? Also, heavy pop-rushing before granaries are up is not too great, imo. What I'm saying is that I got the Axes out in good-ish time, and had a road all the way to the front, but going via Archery and declaring war in advance of the arrival of the main force will always give them time to have at least two archers in their capital, and as soon as you cross their borders they'll pop a third. Any more delay, and they'll have a fourth.

This is why I might try again on the same map with warriors and no Hunting to see if catching the AI any earlier will help, at the risk of having weak units holding the fort, buit with the chance of a medic warrior. I might also try some tests of the slow build-up & choke before striking versus the kick-the-doors-in approach of the unnanounced stack.

[Velociryx]

Oh, no doubt about it! Ind/Phi would be *beyond* broke! Actually, it'd be kinda fun to mod in, just to play with tho...

Maintenance costs...I agree to a point...there's a cap tho, and several points along the way with mysterious price breaks on maintenance ("The Conquerer's Plateau"), so you have pretty vast flexibility in terms of H expansion.

And as to your Vicky methodology....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Hiyas CH! And I'm glad you've been enjoying the Mighty Mongols! Also glad to see that the "recipe" is getting some serious play...that's good...that's better than good, in fact, because each new test brings to light other things that need to be mentioned in the guide in order to make it as complete as possible!

When I ran the sample game that I designed the recipe from, my initial Axe crew got finished at about the same time, actually...I chopped out the settler to get the second city down (right in between some corn and some copper on the flatlands), then chopped out an additional worker set both burgs to making barracks while I hooked up the copper and road-connected everything.

The MOMENT that was done, the workers split up....one going to each city.

A chop at this point finished both barracks and got us started on our first Axemen. Capital's already at size two, so it pops. First Axe completed and starts toward the enemy (Monty, and I like to knock him out early anyways!). Capital begins second Axeman immediately...worker chopping.

He gets there and finds a worker building a mine...POOF! My worker heads back to my terrain, and I sit there on the hill...taunting the opposition.

Second city grows to size two AND gets a chop to correspond with the capital's chop. Bang and Bang....axemen 2-3 are ready, with 4-5 on the way (and 4 will be ready next turn, cos I'll pop at the second city to speed him along).

I'm using size 1-2 cities, nowhere near the happy cap on Monarch, which means that I can do this almost to infinity and never run over the happy cap, popping the MOMENT the city hits size two...that, coupled with a few more chops I have in the area, coupled with the native production (not much, but every little bit helps), means that I can lay down an endless stream of Axes on the enemy's capital.

As luck would have it though, Monty's still only got one city! I don't know what he's been doing over there, but it don't matter...I've got baddies in the vicinity, and even tho he has a settler in his capital, he's keeping him in place (that's the main reason for the declaration via ambush...quick hammer gain, and you keep your target from founding new cities....sure, you give him the chance to beef up his defenses, but that's no biggie).

But I'm not happy sitting on the hill, so I move down (across river) to the flatlands.

Sure enough, my opponent pops an archer and attacks!

Cross river, we beat his pants off, and fortify right there to heal. Had he attacked with a second archer, he may have beaten me...but I dunno...he never did!

In short order, axes 2-3 arrive (stolen worker has been busy building me some roads!), and we lock down all of monty's good food tiles. Axes 4-5 will be along in a minute, so we'll just hunker down and wait.

One thing I NEED to put in the "recipe" is that 4-5 axes are certainly enough to get you started, but you DO NOT want to stop, or even pause in training troops until the target is dead. Never know when the RNG will be unkind, or barbarian ambush slows you down...or who knows what else might happen, so keep building troops.

As it turned out, when Axes 4&5 got there, Monty did have a third archer inside again, but we opted to attack anyway.

Fight took two rounds, and was won the same way CH described his. Promotions prompted healing, which allowed me to polish off the survivors from round one, and netted me a FINE second capital and two free workers (a 220 hammer value, on sale now for the low low introductory price of 3 Axemen!--only counted the ones who died). That's a good value.

All that said, however, I'm *definitely* taking these other examples into account as the writing continues, and will post an update of the progress so far sometime this weekend!

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

One other comment, just to get this onto virtual paper.

No matter HOW comprehensive a "recipe" is for a game of this nature, there's no way we'll be able to write something that can account for every possible outcome.

Will you be able to lure the AI out of the city to attack, or will he stay holed up?

Will you find a worker to capture when you approach, or will you not?

Just no way to do it.

What I hope to do though, is to include notes about the principle of making a given strategy work, and then some more notes on some likely variations you may see, and after that, the hope is that the rest of the material in the guide will enable you to "wing it" when you run into something that's not covered. The other examples that have been provided to this point have all too clearly underscored the idea that in a given game, even when everyone is following the same "playbook" the outcome can vary wildly, and this is one of the reasons that writing a guide like this is going to prove to be quite challenging. The trick will be to find just the right balance between explaining a general principle, and avoiding getting bogged down in too many particulars that will change from game to game.

No "magic bullet" way of doing that, but I'll show you what I've got by this weekend, and get a reading on how I'm doing, in terms of putting it all together.

-=Vel=-

[One_more_turn]

Vicky is one of the most dangerous AI civs in my opinion: she can grab land very fast and develop it incredibly well. If she's not bottled up or roughed up before 1000AD, she's gonna a have runaway lead in tech. If you are alone on a big continent, Vicky is perhaps the best leader to play.

Monty, if he is not your immediate neighbor, is a good tool to use, or rather to abuse. He enjoys fights, so it's quite easy to bribe him into attacking others. He is spritual, so it's easy to curry favor with him. Because he is so occupied with building units, his tech always lags, which makes him easy to bribe. If you want to attack someone, make sure you get Monty on board first. This way, not only do you avoid potential backstabs from him, but you also divert your opponent's attention. I've already (ab)used Monty as my lackey in numerous occasions.

[Velociryx]

So far, here are the variants it looks like we need to consider where the rush game is concerned (and this is just the Axe rush, mind you!)

* Axe Rush, minus Archery (for added speed and warrior defenders)

* Axe Rush, "Kick in the Door" (vs. the worker ambush and choke)

* Need to answer the question of what to do if the opposition is stronger than expected

(for example.....one possible answer could be to make peace...hey, you've already stolen a worker and set the target back sixty hammers, so why not!?)....make peace and build up, then you sorta do both....ambush initially for a free worker and kick the doors in when you're ready....that could be a fourth option, in addition to the one originally posted and the two variants here.

This is gonna be a LONG guide...

-=Vel=-

[Cort Haus]

So Vel, are you popping at size two every time early on? I might try this, but in my test I had hills & food, so running three mines at size 4 for Axes every 3-4 turns looks like a good output. Can poprushing without a granary produce units at this rate?

Also, are you clear-cutting your capital or saving a couple of forest for health?

[One_more_turn]

If you start out the game preparing for an axe rush, but can't copper nearby, then what? Go for iron or horse?

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by One_more_turn
Monty, if he is not your immediate neighbor, is a good tool to use, or rather to abuse. He enjoys fights, so it's quite easy to bribe him into attacking others. He is spritual, so it's easy to curry favor with him. Because he is so occupied with building units, his tech always lags, which makes him easy to bribe.

Yes, Monty is great as a hired goon. If he's on the block I'll often revolve my diplomacy around him. I love the big-cat purr and his crazy head-dress when he comes up on the vid-phone.

[Velociryx]

If you're preparing to rush, I'd almost always gravitate to Axes first, unless you start with animals to put to pasture in your starting radius...then, husbandary is a one-two punch that's too good to pass on.

So my first choice would be copper.

Second choice husbandary, and beyond that, if you have neither, IMO, it's time to forget the rush and play a different game (and hope for Iron). Two "wrong guesses" (try for copper and find none, then try for husbandary and find no horses), means that the window of opportunity is rapidly closing for an ambush/rush to work. Time to regroup and plan for a different game.

CH - yep, I was popping every chance I got, whether the unhappy had worn off or no. And clear-cutting. That kind of speed generally trumps letting the city grow. IMO, the reason you had a harder time for it is this:

a) the detour to archery isn't long (on standard, it's something like 6 turns), but it DOES add a little time, true.

Combine that with

b) the time to grow the city to size 4-5 where Axes DO come out in 3-4 turns...by the time your city reaches that point, my axes are already on the warpath, doing it the other way (granted, with a combination of pop and chop, but still).

I could be wrong, and am definitely going to run additional test games myself (with a variety of civs...not just the mongols), to see as many variants on the theme as we can get!

-=Vel=-

[One_more_turn]

The needed food for growth is (epic speed):
1->2: 33
2->3: 34
3->4: 35
4->5: 36
and so on...

Thus, the city grow the faster, the smaller it is.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Velociryx
So far, here are the variants it looks like we need to consider where the rush game is concerned (and this is just the Axe rush, mind you!)

* Axe Rush, minus Archery (for added speed and warrior defenders)

* Axe Rush, "Kick in the Door" (vs. the worker ambush and choke)

-=Vel=-

I'll try these variants on the same map as before. Logically, the faster the rush, the fewer units should be required to eliminate the rival, and the fewer assets are eventually gained (cities, resources, GGP). The fewer the cities captured, though, the easier it is economically to go for a second nearby victim and a third capital site without the risk of over expanding.

I haven't done enough of this to have a feel for the 'X commerce needed to support Y cities' equation, but I expect that if over six cities are owned early on, a fair few hamlets will be needed by a non-FIN civ to keep things on the rails.

[Stuffe]

Hello vel. Im new here, but i have read a couple of your older guides and i think they are very well written and seem well tested too. I think your postings makes up a real big part of this community. Also i am really looking forward to reading this new guide

When that is said i have a little constructive criticism for you or call it a little help for the writing of your guide

but i think you should make create the structure of your guide before you start writing, as this will help you not just to write a big essay of things you just come across (not saying its that bad at all ).

An example of this could be:

A. General tips
A1 Cities
A2 AI behavior (weaknesses)

B Strategies
B1 Rushing
B11 Rushing with Mongolia (what you wrote in this thread)
B12 Rushing with someone else
B2 Teching

And so on. I think you get the idea

Also another thing i noticed is that you sometimes over explain yourself like:

Reasons for building ON the copper:
* The site selected is toward the enemy position, and we are concerned about the possibility of enemy pillagers in the area
* You're playing with raging barbarians and do not feel that you'd be able to adequately defend the copper mine against them
* You're feeling pressed for time and have no wish to spend valuable worker turns building a mine and a road to connect the cobber
* Doing so will, once the city's borders expand, provide you with more total resources in the city's workable area than building adjacent to the copper would

Reasons for building adjacent to the copper:
* You want to take maximum advantage of the boost in hammers that a mined copper tile provides
* You feel secure in your ability to properly guard the mined resource
* You don't feel pressed for time, and don't mind spending the extra worker turns to bring the resource on-line
* Building adjacent to the copper source would provide you with more total resources in the city's workable area than building ON the copper source would

Instead of just writing:
You can choose to build directly on the cobber to minimize the time your workers have to use, although by doing this you will not get the hammer benefit a mine provides. Also by building directly on the cobber you do not have to defend it from the enemy/barbs.

Another thing, start out with the whole guide and make the compiled checkpoint list for the city building order and the tech order in the bottom, for all of your strats.

Now i might sound like i think you are not writing well, but that's not at all true. Read the first part again if you want a heads up

[Velociryx]

CH - Yep...as we talk about it further, I see other variants I'm and shadings that I'm anxious to try....more tests and experiments lined up for this evening then!

And hiya, Stuffe! Good sugesstions from you as well! I'm slowly gravitating toward the structure you're talking about, but my method of arrival is a bit different than what you perhaps had in mind.

What I'm doing is just sitting down and writing whatever comes to mind...things that I would feel important to impress upon a new player, and, with this in-hand, then trying to devise categories to make the explanations fit into an overall theme, and not be coming from ten different directions at once (this is where the notion of breaking the game down into "phases" as discussed in the topped strat thread), so yep...you'll be happy to know that I'm very definitely headed in the direction you proposed!

-=Vel=-

[Stuffe]

Good boy

And damn you answer fast