Irritated about the Apollo Program

[pauli]

guys, it's plain as day, right there in the tech tree. if you don't have flight, rocketry requires artillery. the path to the apollo program for a civ that does not possess powered flight, radio, or computers is obvious.



do i really need to spell this out?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Blake
I really like how you can chop spaceship parts. It gives me no end of amusement. Building all those props for the spaceship victory hoax.

[sparkyal]

Without a computer to fly it or record the data, you would need someone to actually go up in a plane and safely return to test supersonic flight.

Even though the Apollo capsules floated down to earth, that was still flight.

ok, so I gather from this so far that most people do not agree that flight should be requirted for the Aploo program. While I completely disagree with this, I respect your opinions

sparky

[MoonWolf]

You don't need flight to make arrows, spears or stones to fly through the air... But I agree on computers. That should at least be necessary to build the space program (but not required for rocketry itself).

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by MoonWolf
You don't need flight to make arrows, spears or stones to fly through the air... But I agree on computers.

You don't need flight to make computers to fly through the air, either

[Thrak]

Originally posted by Blake
I really like how you can chop spaceship parts. It gives me no end of amusement. Building all those props for the spaceship victory hoax.

Actually, early chinese satellites used oak panels for heat shielding.

So now you know. Imagine all the astronauts doing spacewalks with a can of furniture polish.

[eris]

Originally posted by Dis
And I'm not sure about this, but I'll mention it anyways. I don't think the Apollo capsules "flew". I think they just went straight down and parachuted into the ocean, and navy ships picked them up.

The space shuttle doesn't actually "fly" either, it glides.

"That's not flying! That's falling with style!" - Toy Story

[zeace]

I think the debate comes down to the definition of flight. If by flight you mean basic of aerodynamics such as rudders and elevators, then flight should be required before rocketry, as without them a rocket is pretty useless. (Of course sailing assumes you've already figured out most of this 6000 years ago...)

But if we consider flight to be the knowledge and ability to use assymetric "wings" to convert forward thrust into lift, then this is certainly not necessary for a space shuttle.

In our alternate rockets before flight world, we develop a large number of rocket-craft and we would use them fly around the atmosphere and learn all about aerodynamics. Then we build a really big one and fly to the moon. No one ever has to build a vehicle that generates lift with wings.

Granted, without computers and/or radio I don't know how you'd get information back from your rocket-craft. Maybe in your police-state theocracy you'd have "volunteers" riding the rockets taking notes and they'd drop the notes out the side of the rocket before it came back to earth?

[Kuciwalker]

Blinking lights?

[Virdrago]

The Soviets sent rocket-craft into space with animals inside. Some came back alive... The scientists used what they found to build better spacecraft for humans. AFAIK though, the animals didn't have radio, and the Soviets didn't have computers onboard... late 50's mainframe, anyone?

This also used jet power, but not conventional (meaning heavier-than-air) flight.

Maybe this explains the tech tree, if I haven't missed anything crucial.

[Kuciwalker]

The Soviets sent rocket-craft into space with animals inside. Some came back alive...

Um, what? I thought they just never came back...

[CarnalCanaan]

Originally posted by Lesbaker

My argument FWIW is that the 3 "Wonders" above don't really fit the Civ criteria for a Wonder at all, which is usually a building of some sort.
Anyone for a debate on what should be the correct criteria for a Wonder
Les

Which is why they arent' Wonders but Projects.

[MasterDave]

Originally posted by Will9

Also, you should need Steam Power as a pre-requisite for the Pyramids, not Masonary, there is no other way to shift that sort of mass of stone, those things are man made mountains!

The Pyramids were built without the wheel and you say we need Steam Power.

I'll third this. What the heck.

Everyone who has been to the movies knows that the Pyramids were really built by alien Predators to serve as arenas/breeding grounds for other aliens (the kind with face-huggers that spawn inside humans) for the Predators to hunt. Also the Predators definitely had Steam Power (steam comes out when they take their masks off to roar menacingly).

I think that a civ should definitely be able to have an Apollo Program without knowing how to make an airplane, as long there are some helpful Predators around to gift that civ some Technology.

[Yosho]

Heh..this is actually mentioned in the manuel, in the back, when discussing the tech tree.

I think the hypothetical question was "is flight really required for rocketry, or would artilary be enough?"

And it's an interesting question. So long as you had the physics and math needed for artilery, there's really no reason why it'd be impossible to develop rocketry even if the basic principles of winged flight were never developed.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by MoonWolf
You don't need flight to make arrows, spears or stones to fly through the air... But I agree on computers. That should at least be necessary to build the space program (but not required for rocketry itself).

Again, I don't really agree. So long as you had all the calculations figured out in advance of things like when to launch, how long the burn should last, ect, there's no reason you couldn't send a rocket to the moon and back without a computer in it. Granted if anything major goes wrong you're screwed, but that's been generally true of spaceflight anyway, at with current technology.

Besides, wouldn't you love to see a few hundred people back in mission control working with slide rules as fast as they could to figure out orbital trajectories?