How do you win a war in Civ 4?

[Nevordan]

It's a broad question, I know... but how many units is enough? How many hours should I spent building up an army? As I've said in a previous post, I spent about an hour and 1/2 building up what I thought was a decent army, and it was destroyed in about 15-20 turns by Montezuma. I am pathetic. PATHETIC!

[trev]

The question is very dependent on stage of game, difficulty level of game etc, very early in game 6 axes/swords is enough to begin with replacements being built, even on immortal level, but late in game up to 100 units will be needed, with a mixture of helicopters, SAMs, mechanized infantry, modern armour, artillery plus defending aircraft in most cities to intercept bombing raids, and multiple stacks of shipping, usually 4 in each stack is enough.

[Thrak]

I threw approximately 30 city attack II swordsman and 10 catapults at 2 longbowmen in an amphibious assault last night.

In order words, don't ask me.

[Nugog]

It also depends on what level you are playing on, what age you are in, who you are attempting to destroy etc etc.

Stacks of Doom do not work!

Each unit has a counter unit. You need to know what you are attacking and the best unit to use to do so.

You need defensive units to protect your attacking units.

You need to also consider the fortifications (both physical and cultural) you are facing and any terrain bonuses.

My best advice is to open up worldbuilder, and experiment.

It does take a while to to get used to, and there are no hard and fast rules.

Also use your promotions wisely - sometimes it is better not to promote the units until you know what you are facing, and therefore what promo's you need.

As for feeling pathetic - your not the only one at times!

[Quillan]

Another thing to consider is that Monty is a raving lunatic. He builds hordes - HORDES - of troops, so you'll need more taking him out than you will almost anyone else. His army tends to be so large that he has vast numbers of disposable troops in his "field force".

I'll explain that last. It seems to me as if the last two Civ games AI considers its army as divided into two sections: the garrison units and the field force. Garrison units are there to defend cities, nothing else. It will occasionally move them around to protect a threatened area, but it won't attack with garrison units. The field force is everything else. When you go to war with an AI, it throws the field force at you. Once it's destroyed, the AI will hunker down in the cities and allow you to roam at will. It will toss newly produced units at you, but that's it.

You'll also have learned now that technological superiority helps, but isn't a subsistute for numbers (or, "Quantity has a quality all its own"). Throwing large numbers of inferior units at superior ones will wear them down and eventually kill them, and that's something Monty is really good at doing.

War changes drastically also with Railroad. Prior to railroad, the units are scattered throughout the empire, and have to move under their own power to reach the battle area. Once railroads are built, they arrive en masse, and the fight becomes really large really fast.

In the very early stages of the game, axemen are the attacking unit of choice. Admittedly, swordsmen are a strength 6 with a natural 10% bonus when attacking cities, but axemen are a 5 with a 50% bonus (!) against other melee units. City raider II/III axemen do bad things to cities, and because they tend to win the open field battles as well, it's not that hard to get them there. With the Warlords expansion, chariots are +100% against axemen, but they are still good for attacking cities. Until Construction, you cannot build any siege equipment, so the defense rating of the city is very hard to deal with. Throw large numbers of units at the city and take it, that's the only thing you can do. Make sure you have enough. Trying and failing will only make it harder next time.

Once you get Construction, make catapults - lots of them. Bombard the defenses down to 0% first, then toss 2-3 catapults at the city defenders. Whether they win or lose, they'll still cause damage to the other defenders, making it easier to take, and catapults are cheap to build (therefore, cheap to replace also).

As technology progresses, the units involved change, but the principle doesn't. Build units to attack the other guy's army, build units to attack his cities, build units to defend your attackers from his army. Spread some troops out to pillage when you can. At the very least, he'll divert some of his field force to take out the pillagers. With some success, you'll earn some money and cut his roads. Don't be afraid to load up a few units on a ship and go around to the back side of his empire to drop off pillagers, too.

[Arrian]

1. Build barracks.

2. Try your best to have counter units on hand to defeat your enemy's units - for instance, if have a strong and pushy Cyrus on your border, make sure to build spearmen! Not spearmen ONLY, mind you, but you want more than one or two. If you are up against Rome (with iron), axemen are your friends. Incidently, axemen also tend to be the answer to Montezuma. You do have to watch out for chariots, though, since they now eat axes alive. Again, spears help with that.

3. Catapults. Especially if you intend to be on the offensive. You really need cats to capture cities unless you have an overwhelming advantage in terms of unit quality or quantity. For instance, if you are Rome and have iron, and can put together a large number of Praetorians before your opponent gets Feudalism (longbows), you can probably roll right over him w/o cats. Otherwise, however, you really need to bombard the city defenses down before attacking. Throwing a cat or two at the city to soften the defenders can also save you many casualties (especially if you're up against a protective civ).

4. When you think you have built enough units, build a few more.

5. Tactics. Avoid attacking enemy units on good terrain (forests/hills) if at all possible. Likewise, try to keep your troops on such terrain.

6. Tech. If you're a good builder type, you may be able to open up a tech lead and thus field superior units (such as Macemen when everybody else is still using axes/swords).

You may want to consider declaring war and allowing the enemy to move against you first. This will convey the defender's advantage to you. Destroy his surplus troops (by surplus I mean the units the AI doesn't task for city defense) in your lands, and then shift to the offensive. Now you've got more units than he does and more experienced units than he does.

-Arrian

[Prussia]

If you are fighting a war you don't want to continue, there are numerous ways to annoy your foe so his war is too expensive to continue while you are still growing and flourishing, yet beating off his forces.

[jbp26]

before i go to war, i check the power graph and make sure my power is comparable with the AI im going to fight. they will generally keep much larger garrisons in their cities than i do, so even at comparable power, my field army is much larger. once you deal with their first wave, you can rush in and start doing some damage. pillage their vital resources, especially iron and copper, to stifle their reinforcements. then go to town. take a few cities if you can, but only if you can hold them. razing them is a perfectly viable option. taking out half an AIs cities early on will permanently cripple their ability to make war, so you can go back and conquer the rest later, or just leave a neighbor you dont have to worry about.

another option is to wait for the AI to go to war with another civ. give them 4 or 5 turns to have all their units committed to that fight, then sweep through the back door.

[indeliblemerson]

Re: How do you win a war in Civ 4?

Originally posted by Nevordan
... was destroyed in about 15-20 turns by Montezuma. I am pathetic. PATHETIC!

I was wondering what do you have to do to get a victory without resorting to the worldbuilder and cheating?

[Prussia]

Re: Re: How do you win a war in Civ 4?

Originally posted by indeliblemerson


I was wondering what do you have to do to get a victory without resorting to the worldbuilder and cheating?

Repetitio mater memoria.

That's latin, for:

PRACTICE YOUR ASS OFF

[CarnalCanaan]

I'm going to offer Sun Tzu's in-game quote: "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win." Or, in Americanese: Preparation is everything.

1. Specialize your cities: You don't necessarily need barracks in every city, especially in the earliest part of the game. Be sure you have them in your most productive cities, but remember that you can build up a few promotions by fighting barbarians. Also, at least one of your cities should be focused on the military. If you have marble, it should be where your Heroic Epic is based. If you have stone, put your West Point there. As you get Great Generals, build a Military Academy and settle them there as Military Instructors. Only a few of these things can make a huge difference in your ability to produce units quickly enough and skilled enough to maintain an offensive. And every offensive will last longer than you'd like it to...

2. Know your limits: In a perfect game you'd have access to all necessary units and unlimited finances. But usually, something will drag on your military. Remember your units' abilities and specialize them accordingly. E.g. your Axemen can be dedicated melee field units if you have iron which allows you to build Swordsmen. With several City Raider promotions, they can easily cut down defending Archers and even Longbowmen. However, say you have horses but no metals. Yes, the Chariots get a bonus against Axemen, which will be to your advantage in the field, but against cities you will need Horse Archers to defeat the garrisoned Archers and Longbowmen. It may be better to give your Chariots their promotion against melee units and the Horse Archers Cover.

But, as has been said, the AI will counter you well, within its abilities. And your attacking units must attack their most disadvantageous opponents. Perhaps it would be good to prepare a few of your city assaulting Swordsman or Horse Archers to attack that first, tough Axeman or Spearman that is wating behind the walls...

3. Know your opponent(s)' limits: This is easier said than done and the suggestion of letting your enemy come to you is not a bad one. They will, after all, come to you whether you like it or not. Might as well make ol' Sun Tzu proud and fight the enemy on your terms. But when making your own offensive push, you need to know what the enemy will have arrayed against you. Just as you have options for countering the AIs defense, the AI has options for countering your offense. A massive City Raider III promoted Swordsmen Stack-of-Doom is remarkably vulnerable to a counteroffensive of Horse Archers or Axemen. If you know your opponent has horses available, bring along some Spearmen as escorts. If the AI has metal, bring Axemen or Crossbowmen. If the opponent has these things available, it is easy to see: zoom out and turn on the resource locator. The resources are colored according to whose territory controls it.

Of course, you do not fight in a vacuum and neither does your opponent. Say, he is quite friendly with his neighbor who, I've noticed, is sitting on some spare iron...

Which leads us to:

4. Survey the diplomatic field before pulling the proverbial trigger: While the first three suggestions will help you win the battle, this fourth suggestion is designed to help you win the war. Whatever your goal is, you will almost invariably be forced to fight longer and harder for it than you anticipated. Diplomacy deserves its own thread entirely, but simplified, you must keep an eye on three factors before going to war:[list][*]Religion: This is the easiest factor to understand. If the AI shares your state religion, it will have a favorable attitude towards you that will cushion whatever negative action you take. And it is very easy to survey this factor just by looking at the score list.

Keep in mind that not all AIs will figure religion equally in their relations to you. Isabella is well known around here as a zealot, which can create problems to no end. But consider this: if she's such a zealot and is so friendly with her compatriots in the faith then what might her reaction be to an opportunistic attack by one of those confessional allies?
[*]Vassals, Defensive Pacts and potential War Allies: These first two are straight forward - if you attack one member of such an alliance you are attacking all members. It is extremely important, especially in the late game, to look at the Diplomacy Advisor screen before instigating war. Vassals are tracked on the score list by mousing over the leader's name, but Defensive Pacts can only be seen on the Diplomacy Advisor screen!

A potential War Ally is harder to discern but not all that difficult to survey. In the Diplomacy Advisor screen you can click on a Leaderhead and then mouse over the other leaders to learn what their diplomatic relations are with that AI. With this you can instantly tell who is their friend and thus who is likely to enter the war on your opponent's behalf. (Other factors will affect this, especially the third party's relations with you. If he hates you and loves your opponent you can be fairly certain that you will have to fight them both.)
[*]Third Party Relations: This matters in two categories. First, will you be able to bring your own allies into the war on your side? This is not tricky to survey: Open a dialogue with each of your friends (or maybe the occasional rival!) and check to see if the name of the leader you are targeting is white under either 'Declare War On:' or 'Stop Trading With:' If it is, that means they are willing to be pursuaded to join your crusade. This pursuasion may be costly, so buyer beware.

Second, what effect will the war have on my relations with the other AIs? If the third party AI is 'Pleased' or 'Friendly' towards the AI you attack, then you will suffer at least a -1 hit to your relations with that third party. This may not seem like a huge consequence, but the effect can last much longer than you might expect. Also, if your relations are sitting on the fence it may be enough to cause that third party to close its borders to you, cancel trade agreements or even declare war at their friend's behest. What if your route of attack runs through the territory of your intended victim's closest friend? Perhaps you have the numbers and the skill to obliterate your opponent's middling forces, but the war may still be unwinnable.[/list=1]

Most of this, in my experience, is not difficult to do. You just have to take your time and plan your war before you fight it.
I haven't mentioned the use of Warlord units and others in this community are much better at crunching the odds calculations than am I. But my take-away in Civ is not much different than IRL: remember to see the forest for the trees.

Happy hunting.

[CarnalCanaan]

Re: Re: Re: How do you win a war in Civ 4?

Originally posted by Prussia


Repetitio mater memoria.

That's latin, for:

PRACTICE YOUR ASS OFF

Or, in German:

Genie ist Sitzfleisch!

[Velociryx]

There has already been a lot of good advice offered here, and you will go far by following it. To a certain extent, combat IS a mechanical affair, and by mastering the rote, mechanical aspects of it, you will learn a fair bit, and certainly win a lot of games.

I would say, however, that mastery of the mechanical aspects of battle is but the tip of the iceberg. It is the place of beginning, and not the destination.

Also, much discussion of the mechanics of battle happens "in a perfect world," and that is for a reason. There are multitudes of variables to consider, and it is often nigh on impossible to create a situation or scenario that covers a goodish sum, or even much beyond a slice. Thus, the need to simplify the discussion to an extreme, often quite fictional level that few, if any games, ever achieve.

The problem with that approach is that if you're shooting for perfection, you will invariably fall short, and so, become frustrated by the process. One of the keys to avoiding this is to understand where it comes from.

All that said, I don't have all the answers, and I'll have to abide by the same rules and conventions that everybody else does. I can't give you in one post, or even a hundred, a surefire methodology that will cover all the bases, but I can write something that, if applied as a generalized mindset in preparation for battle, will serve you well.

First, I would say: Consider all of these items individually, and fully appreciate them as singular events, and then, when you have mastered them AS individual happenings, begin combining them in any way that your imagination wanders. As you will quickly realize, there is an infinite variety....an infinite number of combinations, and this is the true nature of warfare.

Chaos.

So, at a minimum, keep all of the following in your mind:

* Training. All other things being equal, the better trained soldier is the soldier who still stands at the end of battle. Even tiny, incremental improvements (ie., the ten percent bonus a warrior gets from the "Combat I" promotion, can be the thing which turns a defeat into a victory, so if you have a choice, ALWAYS build promoted troops.

* Sacrifice. In the course of a battle, it may be necessary to "soften the opposition up" first. Do not be ashamed of this need, nor afraid of the necessity. Remember the "perfect world" comment from before? Well, here's your first real world example. Ideally, you'll build the best troops you can, and everywhere you build them will have a barracks and a stable (Warlords) so you can maximize the amount of training your troops get. In practice, this will seldom be the case, and you'll likely have a number of "unpromoted" troops. These are your cannon fodder. If your best troop cannot defeat yonder enemy, then throw a unit of your "recruits" at him and knock him down a peg. Then check the odds with your crack troops.

In this way, you preserve the best troops you have as "finishers" and, lo and behold, in this less than perfect world, you always seem to have a steady supply of "raw recruits" to throw in the path of juggernaught stacks or units. Even if you have barracks everywhere, this is the case, as you will invariably wind up with a core of highly promoted units to compare the rest against.

* That said, do not carelessly throw the lives of your troops away. Every move your troops make, every attack should accomplish some goal. That bears bolding and repeating: EVERY move your troops make, every attack should accomplish some goal.

If you cannot figure out what to do with a unit, then don't move that unit.

In short order, you will train your brain to move ONLY those units you need, and only for a specific, tangible purpose. If you cannot name what it is, then move nothing, and study the map until you understand what you are looking at.

* Rest your troops. This seems obvious, but often is not. It is all too easy to continue moving your troops and trying to press your percieved advantage when your troops are not ready, or capable of pushing through to your objectives. Rest them when you can, and try to fight with your army as close to optimal strength as you can. Again, it's not a perfect world, so this won't be possible a good chunk of the time, but WHEN you have to fight with damaged units, the odds calculator is all the more important (it should be your best friend in any case, and you should check it religously).

* Memorize the counters. You should not have to think about what unit counters which enemy unit. If you don't have them memorized, stop reading this thread and go study that until it is second nature. The enemy army should not be seen as an army per se, but only as a dynamic system of threats, while your army is composed of a dynamic system of counters (and threats to your enemy). At its most basic form, combat is the art of applying your counters to your opponent's threats in the most efficient manner possible. That's it. That's as distilled as you can make the process.

* Understand the flow of the game you're in. Also called the metagame. In this particular instance, what this means is reading the flow of the game to predict who your likely enemies will be and where they will come from. You can learn a lot of this by studying who is running what civics, who's currently pleased, cautious, or annoyed with you (and why), and who has open borders with whom (which will tell you, if you are attacked, where enemy units may come from, and thus, what sections of your borders you need to focus on defending).

* Stack as many advantages in your favor as you can. And there are a number of advantages you can gain for yourself. Training (as mentioned). Fortification. Hills and forests. Forts (different from the fortification command), walls, cultural bonuses, combined arms benefits, synergistic promotions among stacked units...the list goes on, and the more of these factors you can combine in your favor into a single battle, the more likely it is that you will achieve victory. As a simple test, consider an enemy archer.

If you attack said archer in the plains with your swordsman, is it not so that your victory is...well, perhaps not assured, but certainly heavily slanted in your favor?

Now...same scenario, but put the archer on a hill and fortify him for five turns. A bit harder, yes?

Now make the hill a forested hill. What are your odds?

Now make it a fortified archer in a city with 60% cultural/walled defenses, fortified for five turns (city's on a hill) with the garrison I promotion.

That's a whole different beast than attacking said archer in the plains, and he GETS his strength by combining as many of the aforementioned advantages as possible, until his strength eclipses that of your (vastly more expensive, from a hammers spent perspective) Swordsman.

* If you make your opponent spend more hammers on his attack than you are spending on defense, you can hold him off indefinitely, even if you are significantly smaller. This is simplel mathematical certainty and is true no matter how many curves the Random Number Generator might throw your way. Of course, its truth only holds so long as you have a good understanding of your productive capacity vs. your opponent's (that is to say, if you are twice as productive as your opponent and can beat his swordsmen with your archers consistently, then your enemy has no prayer of winning...on the other hand, if you are only a quarter as big as your opponent (production wise), then you need to consistently defeat his 100 hammers of units with 25 hammers (or less) of your own. Do that consistently, and you can hold him off forever, and eventually, go on the offensive.

And of course, the opposite case is true. If you make your opponent spend more hammers on his defense than you are spending on the attack, your opponent CANNOT win. It is merely a matter of patience and timing.

* IN GENERAL, do not attack a city unless you have double the total (modified) combat strength of your opponent. Less than this, and you risk getting surprised. More is usually overkill. ALWAYS use siege weapons if they are available.

* IN GENERAL, attack your opponent's cities last. The basic steps should be:
If you are the attacker:

a) Declare war and snipe workers/obvious targets (where your cultural borders are pressing close enough to allow you to take a city in one turn, or lone combat units, etc).

--> Explanation: If you are declaring the war, then you have momentum and initiative. You control the tempo of the opening battles...pick your targets carefully and snipe as many of his workers as you're able to conveniently reach. Hammers lost for him. Hammers gained for you. Likewise, ambush any wandering military units you can catch outside his cities. Easy kills are always welcome.

b) Pull back or consolidate around captured cities and eat the enemy's counter attack.

--> Explanation: The AI WILL counter. If you're not expecting it, then you should be. Don't get in a hurry, they generally try to alpha strike you, by sending everything but their garrisons that they can spare. Be patient and destroy these before proceeding into the heart of the enemy's lands. If you didn't take any enemy cities, then pull back to your own terrain where you have all the advantages and hold all the cards. Destroy the enemy army in the field, at least as much as possible. Sun Tzu teaches us to avoid attacking the enemy cities at all costs, and it is a good lesson. In civ of course, we MUST ultimately attack his cities, but as many units as we can defeat in the open, this is what we want to do (to avoid all of the aforementioned "bonus stacking").

c) Rip him to shreds.

--> Explanation: Once you've absorbed his counter attack, proceed with the general invasion. If you lack catapults, and you are worried that you may have insufficient troops to crack a given city, then try to lure units to attack you outside (by leaving a single unit in an exposed position, and/or by beginning to rip up key terraforming). Yes, you will lose units this way, but fewer than if you attack a heavily fortified position without catapults.

If the opponent has declared the war against you:
a) Identify his key objectives

--> Explanation: The AI has a plan when he attacks you. It might not be MUCH of a plan, but there's very definitely a method to the madness. He's got an objective, and it falls to you to figure out what it is. Is he gunning for this city, or that? You need to know, because the ANSWER to the question will determine what your defensive needs are.

b) denial

--> Explanation: Wherever possible, deny the enemy use of your best terrain. You do this by occupying it yourself, or killing enemy units before they get to said terrain. Easier said than done, but with practice, this will be automatic. You can gain much where this is concerned by parking units on said terrain during peacetime. Then, they're already where they need to be.

c) Break the stack(s)

--> Pillage zones will do this by default, but baiting works as well (leave 1-2 units fortified on the best terrain in hopes of luring an attack, while a stronger stack waits to counter attack, just out of range of the main enemy force, but close enough to support the luring positon). Often, the AI will just roll right up to your city gates an pound you. That be the case, then you have most of the key advantages on your side, because defense is quite powerful in Civ...and when he wears himself out on your defenses, you can counter attack the following turn and end him.

----> Catapults are useful for demolishing the attack capability of an enemy stack (just as useful in this way as they are for attacking cities)

----> Passive defense = sitting behind your walls or in your fortified terrain waiting to be attacked. Active defense = letting the enemy roll up to your gates and stomping him before he can attack. You need some of both, to be optimally effective. Plan your defense accordingly.

d) Counter attack

--> Explanation: Again, once you have "eaten" the best the enemy has to give you, rally your forces and return the favor.

I'll have to continue this ramble later...meds kicking in and I can barely see the screen. As it is, I fear that my thoughts are beginning to scatter.

-=Vel=-

[Dis]

2 to 1. It's my motto. This is in the middle difficulty levels mind you. This may not work on higher diffs.

If you want to take a city, make sure you have twice as many attackers as he has defenders.

[trev]

2 to 1 works well if the troops are fairly even in strength, but not true for uneven strength units, as found by the player with 30 swords and cats as well. Amphibious assaults reduce the attacking strength by half, and swords are weaker than longbows in cities too, so assuming a culture defence of 40%, it becomes something like strength 4 against strength 15 probably, so many units will be wasted. 4 swords are almost certain in the early game to kill 2 archers, or archer and spearman, the AI defenders of choice, but bad luck is of course possible.