Culture Flipping--A Little Help Please

[Old Geezer]

I assume it's around here, somewhere, but my search attempts aren't working out. So can someone please link me to, or float, a thread discussing the particulars of culture flipping in Civ IV?

The book says it still happens, but so far, in my first half dozen games, I haven't seen a single culture flip. Based on my experience with the prior versions of the game, I would have expected to see lots by now. It seems that culture flips have been really scaled back. I've seen plenty of rebellions, but no flips. Perhaps there's something I should be doing when opponent cities rebel to make them flip? If so, it ain't in the book.

Or perhaps its because, for now, I'm playing on Noble level, where I was always playing prior versions of Civ on the highest difficulty level. Perhaps the fact that I'm on the median level of the game make a difference in seeing culture flipping?

I have dozens of questions about how the new Civ rules work, but this one is at the top of my list for now. I need to relearn how to build an economy all over again under the harsh ceilings imposed by the new rules. 'Til then, it's Noble level for me I guess. It's hard on us old geezers to go and change the fundamental dynamics after 20 years.

[Saurus]

In my games cultureflips DO happen and happen somewhat reguraly. But somewhat randomly.
Cities tend to flip more easily early in the game when the relative cultural values between cities is greater.
Later on you will have to work more in order to gain such an cultural advantage.

In my current game, barbarians captured my city next to my capital. The Carthagians then managed to capture that city from the barbarians.

Well, as it stands I happen to have access to both Stone and marble AND beeing an indoustrious civ so I have built almost all wonders in the world in my capital city. Beefed up with a cathedral my cultural pressure against the chartagian city is now extreme and the city already has rebelled 5 or 6 times by now but NOT flipped.

On the other hand, another city (futher away from my capital) also rebelled AND flipped almost as soon as my cultural borders touched the edge of that city.
Too bad that city was nothing but a piece of junk...

[Prussia]

That's impossible, Saurus. The game rules say that the second time the city rebels it flips.

[Old Geezer]

Originally posted by Prussia
That's impossible, Saurus. The game rules say that the second time the city rebels it flips.

Then the game rules are incorrect, or they've been changed in the patch. In the last game I played, I stopped midway through conquering the Egyptians, leaving a number of cuture-pressured border cities. One of those, Byblos, went through multiple rebellions; more than I could now recount, but it was at least 5-6. All of these rebellions were lengthy. The city never flipped, remaining in my civilization for the rest of the game. Vanilla civ, latest patch, no mods.

This exchange is a good opportunity for me to reiterate the top request of my thread. Is there, somewhere on this site, a good discussion of the mechanics of culture flipping? Rules and math, rather than anecdotes and conjecture?

[Blake]

A city you captured, under cultural pressure from the original owner, can rebel but will never flip - unless you use the special setting which allows it: "Captured cities can flip back to original owner".

[Blaupanzer]

Such cities will flip to a third party, however. If that other civ is the one exerting the pressure, bye bye city on second revolt.

[Old Geezer]

Ahh, now that makes sense of my games, and several threads hereabouts, too. Thanks. Plus, now I know there's an option to play by the 'old' rule, too. Thanks, again.

[Prussia]

Maybe Blake is right, but I swear that evertime I play, the second rebellion is the key to culture flipping.

This is, keep in mind, going from the original owner, to a new one. I'm absolutely sure this is a rule.

[Saurus]

Originally posted by Prussia
That's impossible, Saurus. The game rules say that the second time the city rebels it flips.

By the time I write this, the city in question has rebelled a total of 8 times and still not flipped so there seem to be no limit concerning how many times a city might rebel so if the rules states otherwise, then the rules are incorrect.
In fact, I expect even more rebellions in that particular city since I just recently switched to free religion

[Prussia]

I'll check that and get back to you, you're playing vanilla, right? 1.61?

[Saurus]

Originally posted by Prussia
I'll check that and get back to you, you're playing vanilla, right? 1.61?

No, in fact i´m playing warlords. Mayhaps the rules have changed regarding cultural flipping then?

I thought Warlords and vanilla were identical when it came to cultural behaeviour as I cannot recall reading about any changes made regarding this.

[Urban Ranger]

As Blake said, the original owner cannot culturally flip a captured city unless that option is switched on.

[mindlace123]

If a city has never been conquered, it will *always* flip after the second rebellion. The city owner has a chance after putting down the first to bump the culture enough to keep it from flipping.

Aside from that, the previous posters are correct: a city, once conquered, won't flip back to the conquered regardless of how culture poor it is, something that chaps my high-culture hide - but seeing as you lose all non-wonders, I guess it's necessary.

[Prussia]

That's what I meant, sorry, if it had never been conquered...

[Saurus]

Originally posted by mindlace123
If a city has never been conquered, it will *always* flip after the second rebellion. The city owner has a chance after putting down the first to bump the culture enough to keep it from flipping.

Aside from that, the previous posters are correct: a city, once conquered, won't flip back to the conquered regardless of how culture poor it is, something that chaps my high-culture hide - but seeing as you lose all non-wonders, I guess it's necessary.

Ok, now I got it.
However, I think there should be a rule that would allow the city to switch back later even if couquered. Not instantly but, say, 100 turns later or something so that the conqueror has a change to do something about the culture.
The charthagians having a level 1 city surrounded by my culture from all possible directions that just keeps on rebelling constantly is just silly. And the A.I happily pays upkeep for this city witch will never be able to work a single square!

But acutally I did Hannibal a favor. After rebellion number twelve I got weary and razed the city.
Now Hannibal needs to pay upkeep no more