Vassals -

[Destroyer]

I have almost finish my first game of Warlords, which has lasted the best part of a month. I played on a super huge map on a customised marathon setting, with 7 other civs, Monarch level.

The main players in order of power were:
1 Me
2 Aztec
3 America
4 India
5 Carthage
6 Germany

Once the game had got underway, and most of the main continents were colonised, things began to look interesting. I found who is allied to who dictated much of the state of the game. I had a peaceful vassalage of the Indians. As soon as the terminated it, the Aztecs decalred war on them.

The Carthageans also asked to be my vassal for a while, and again the Aztecs attacked them after it expired. The Aztecs were desperate to expand in order to challange me, although our borders are not adjacent.

AFter the Aztecs made vassals of Saladin and the Carthageans, the Americans felt threatened enough to ask to be my vassals (not noticing what happened to the other two).

This dynamic works a lot better than alliances ever did, and its made the game far more interesting, with the AI being a bit more sneaky than I am used to. The balance of power can shift very quickly, and makes the game far more exciting.

[Dis]

a month! . I don't like it when my games take over a day. .

[Jaybe]

Yes, diplomacy dynamics through vassal states are very interesting!
My (normal) huge/fractal/marathon/11-civ games last 2-3 weeks, around 60 hours.

[KyuuA4]

It's fun declaring on war on while having vassals -- especially on a vassal state or a state with vassals. It's a lot of red text at once.

[diemex]

I just finished a game where the AI was on top of things but was also in the "good" with me. When I went to war I asked assistance and was helped.... both wars ended when the enemy capitulated to my AI ally. Next thing I knew my AI ally had 3 capitualted states and owned half the globe. Good thing we were brothers of the faith.... If I went to war with him it would all be over.

[CarnalCanaan]

Originally posted by diemex
I just finished a game where the AI was on top of things but was also in the "good" with me. When I went to war I asked assistance and was helped.... both wars ended when the enemy capitulated to my AI ally. Next thing I knew my AI ally had 3 capitualted states and owned half the globe. Good thing we were brothers of the faith.... If I went to war with him it would all be over.

This I think is the biggest advantage of the Vassal system. With it AIs really can effectively pacify a human opponent. It's one more thing I have to check for before I mobilize: Religion, third-party relationships and now vassal status.

One very troublesome trick I've noticed that has ended several of my games prematurely: just as I have the AI on the ropes, I think, "Huzzah! New vassal for the Empire of Me!" Except the AI has a very good friend who comes to the rescue. Not the old-fashioned way, by declaring war, but by accepting the doomed AI as a peaceful vassal. The new master assumes the vassal's diplomatic status towards me, not the other way round, and what I thought was a happy adventure of territorial expansion has turned into an intractible world war.



International Relations sucks. But gosh durn if t'ain't fun!

[Brael]

Actually thats something that annoys me about the vassal system, it seems the AI is using vassal to bring in war allies exstensively. This would be ok except the AI's don't appear to pay attention to the new vassals diplomatic/power status before accepting them.

[zeace]

The new master doesn't necessarily goto war with you... If you and the new master were both at war with the new vassal, when he agrees to become a vassal, you're at peace with the new combo. But it does seem that if the vassal isn't at war with it's master when it capitulates, then the master declares war on you.

In both cases it would be nice for there to be a new pop-up box: "Civ A just became the vassal of Civ B. You were at war with A and at peace with B. What would you like to do?
* Keep fighting A, B will declare war on you for attacking his vassal.
* Peace with A. B will continue to be peaceful.

In the real world, the new master country would ask you to stop your war, and you'd either agree, or the master would attack you. So maybe this pop-up should be a discussion with the new master.

[kiky]

Originally posted by zeace
The new master doesn't necessarily goto war with you... If you and the new master were both at war with the new vassal, when he agrees to become a vassal, you're at peace with the new combo. But it does seem that if the vassal isn't at war with it's master when it capitulates, then the master declares war on you.

In both cases it would be nice for there to be a new pop-up box: "Civ A just became the vassal of Civ B. You were at war with A and at peace with B. What would you like to do?
* Keep fighting A, B will declare war on you for attacking his vassal.
* Peace with A. B will continue to be peaceful.

In the real world, the new master country would ask you to stop your war, and you'd either agree, or the master would attack you. So maybe this pop-up should be a discussion with the new master.

[Prussia]

Originally posted by kiky

[Blaupanzer]

In current times, the new master might ask you to make peace with his new vassal or face his wrath or some such. ("My words are backed with nuclear weapons.") However, in the bad old days (read most of our history), the first you would hear of the new relationship would be when the new master's army came screaming out of the hills to fall on your army in the vassal's land. Diplomatic niceties are really a modern phenomenom.

[Prussia]

When does the AI say "My words are backed with nuclear weapons?" I've tried to get them to say it for months now.

[Smellycowsquid]

I believe thats from the old days . Civ I or Civ II

[Dis]

civ2. I miss some of those quotes.

I especially miss the advisor quotes. One of these days I may install that game again.