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What Kind of Simple Balancing Changes Would You Like to See in Future Patches?

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  • What Kind of Simple Balancing Changes Would You Like to See in Future Patches?

    While we are all hoping for things like AI improvements or additional content, what kinds of simple tweaks to the game balance would you like to see made in the next patch? Now that we all have a few games of Warlords under our belt, I'm sure we have some ideas.

    Here are a few that I would suggest

    -Buff the shopping mall: the mall comes oh-so-very late at refridgeration. It's main benefit is +10% commerce. Other UBs such as the Mint have been providing their host civ with +10% commerce for centuries by the time the mall comes into play. There is also a happiness bonus for hit singles, et al, but I typically don't find happiness to be much of a factor that late in the game. I would either leave the UB as is and have it replace the grocer, or give it a stronger effect to make up for it's late appearence.

    - Buff the Gallic Swordsman: The Gallic Swordsman is undoubtedly the weakest of the new UUs in Warlords. A truly miniscule Guerilla 1 bonus would be weak on it's own, but it is made even less exciting by virtue of the fact that the UB conveys the exact same bonus. Granted, it doesn't do so to melee units such as the swordsman, but it is still extremely boring. Moreover, compared to similar UUs (Praetorian, Berserker, Samurai, Jaguar), it's benefit is minimal. Even the Jaguar has at least a certain strategy to utilize to great effect, but the Gallic Swordsman will never be more than a generic swordsman with cool artwork. So the combination of being overly weak and boring to boot makes this unit doubly damned in my opinion.

    -Buff the Odeon: Another horrible UB. The thing about the odeon is that it replaces a building that isn't that great in the first place and is rarely worth it's cost in shields, the colosseum. Beyond that though, it's benefit is negligible compared to other UBs. It grants a bit of extra culture, the ability to turn one citizen to an artist, and +1 happiness from hit singles. None of these are benefits that can really impact the game in even a minor way. It is modestly useful if going for a cultural victory, I will grant that. But when playing Alexander a cultural victory is usually one of the paths least travelled. As for the +1 happiness, it comes too late to be even worth mentioning. I would probably ditch the hit single bonus and grant an extra +1 happiness the second the odeon was built, and perhaps increase the effect that the odeon has on the culture slider which is a potentially intriguing benefit, giving Alexander a strong weapon against war weariness. Another alternative would be to give great artist points without needing to commit an citizen to being an artist. Either of these would be interesting buffs.

    -Buff the Mausoleum- The mausoleum is the one UB that is absolutely, undeniably inferior. It's bonus is +2 happiness...which is fine except for the fact that the hammam has the exact same benefit and is available many centuries earlier! The Turks get the +2 happiness benefit for literal ages before the Indians get theirs at Constitution. The manual mentioned the mausoleum giving great prophet points, while this was eventually removed, at least it would have given it something to differentiate it from other UBs. One option might be to have it give a free priest in addition to it's happiness bonus. This could give the Indians some strong synergy with Angkor Wat and at least make the mausoleum somewhat strategically interesting.

    There are some other changes that I am on the fence about. I do understand some of the wishes to nerf the trebuchet, it does seem very strong for it's time period. I would also consider buffing the citadel, but I haven't played with it enough to give a definitive judgement. The ikhanda is the one UB i would consider nerfing. It is extremely powerful, and available at the beginning of the game. But again, I haven't used it enough to say for sure.

    :
    Last edited by monkspider; August 22, 2006, 15:04.
    http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    Both Gallic Warrior and Jaguar are just a touch off of being better than the unit they replace. Compared to the Praetorian, both are very weak. Balance would ask, what about their civ offsets this?

    Similarly, the Japanese, American, and German buildings come so late as to not really be a consideration. Americans and Germans have late units as well. Americans should probably get marine-like musketmen (amphib at that period), while the Romans claimed German cavalry to be the best in the known world (beefed-up horse archers).

    The French should get Guard Grenadiers for gosh sake! The unit most feared in Europe in the Napoleonic Era makes no appearance in Civ? Abomination! Shame on Firaxis! Plus 1 strength and same 2 speed as the musketeers would work fine thanks.

    Need a civ leader with the Cre/Fin combination. This made Catherine a wiz AI leader in Civ vanilla.

    Still need a civ to represent the fertile crescent (Sumeria/Babylon/Akkad/Assyria). They need a building based on the aqueduct as they appear to be the first with extensive irrigation.
    No matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
    "I played it [Civilization] for three months and then realised I hadn't done any work. In the end, I had to delete all the saved files and smash the CD." Iain Banks, author

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    • #3
      AI civs send some rifles/infantry with their cannon -- something that can take advantage of terrain defensive bonuses. WHY send stacks of cavalry & cannon along hills & forests when no one gets advantage from them??

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      • #4
        monkspider:
        Buff the Gallic Swordsman: The Gallic Swordsman is undoubtedly the weakest of the new UUs in Warlords. A truly miniscule Guerilla 1 bonus would be weak on it's own, but it is made even less exciting by virtue of the fact that the UB conveys the exact same bonus. Granted, it doesn't do so to melee units such as the swordsman, but it is still extremely boring. Moreover, compared to similar UUs (Praetorian, Berserker, Samurai, Jaguar), it's benefit is minimal. Even the Jaguar has at least a certain strategy to utilize to great effect, but the Gallic Swordsman will never be more than a generic swordsman with cool artwork. So the combination of being overly weak and boring to boot makes this unit doubly damned in my opinion.
        Amen! I played the Celts without really looking at their UU. When I got it, I thought, "You must be joking." Maybe it's a flaw in my play, but I don't value the Guerilla bonuses all that much anyway. In fact, I've rarely used them. I did have a scout that hit consecutive "experience" goodie huts, so he became a double forest, double hill bonused unit that could nearly fly around the map, but that's about it.

        Bottom line: when I think "Swordsman," I'm not thinking, "Hey, that unit could really bolster my hill defenses." I am thinking, "Let's get this guy next to a city." Without a doubt, the worst UU in the game.
        "One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them"

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        • #5
          The shopping mall is pretty useless. I hardly ever build the generic version of the shopping mall anyway (What is it? The supermarket?).

          And yeah, it's too bad for the Americans and Germans that both of their uniques come so late. I guess the trouble is you can only do one unique version of each building and some of them had to come late, and it would be a bit weird giving Rome an upgraded factory or something. But it sure is problematic balance-wise.

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          • #6
            Is the problem that each building can have only one unique? This is clearly not true for units. Why would it be for buildings?
            No matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
            "I played it [Civilization] for three months and then realised I hadn't done any work. In the end, I had to delete all the saved files and smash the CD." Iain Banks, author

            Comment


            • #7
              A couple things to add:

              Castles - Move them from Engineering down to Monarchy (for example). Their use is just so limited when they come so close to Economics, and it really makes the Spanish UB rather insulting.

              Lumbermills - I've always just hated how late these come, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Perhaps adding Lumber Camps in at Construction and making Replaceable Parts give +1prod or commerce.
              - Dregor

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Blaupanzer


                Similarly, the Japanese, American, and German buildings come so late as to not really be a consideration. Americans and Germans have late units as well. Americans should probably get marine-like musketmen (amphib at that period), while the Romans claimed German cavalry to be the best in the known world (beefed-up horse archers).
                I had thought long and hard about the German and Japanese UBs and they each had an angle that at least made them worthwhile considering how late they came. The German UB builds quickly with coal and grants a couple extra engineer citizens. I find this to be fairly useful given that I usually have to go on a fairly long infastructure kick when assembly line becomes available, and being able to speed this up is certainly helpful. I also find the extra engineers to be nice considering great engineers are probably the best late game UU (or at least right up there with merchants/scientists) and engineers tend to be my specialist of choice for cities that exceed 20 pop. It's not uncommon for my bigger cities to exceed the number of engineers that are granted with the standard buildings, so I could see this bonus of the assembly line also coming in handy. So overall, I can see the assembly line as being defensibly strong, even if not great.

                The shale plant I was intially bearish on but I have come to appreciate what 10% hammers in your cities can do for a late game war or for a space race. The fact that it is the only UB that actually increases your production is noteworthy in itself. Moreover, it waives the normal coal resource requirement. So, to me at least, the Shale plant is also strong enough to stand by.
                http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by dregor
                  A couple things to add:

                  Castles - Move them from Engineering down to Monarchy (for example). Their use is just so limited when they come so close to Economics, and it really makes the Spanish UB rather insulting.

                  This is a great point, and I would agree with this. It would also provide an interesting defensive strategy for civs right around the time that catapults come into vogue.
                  http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Blaupanzer
                    Is the problem that each building can have only one unique? This is clearly not true for units. Why would it be for buildings?
                    I don't think it would necessarily be a problem. I doubt it's hard-coded into the game or anything. But right now, if I recall correctly, there's only one UB per type of building and that's probably something the designers did intentionally.

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                    • #11
                      Balance issues I would like to see:

                      Gallic Swordsmen suck big time. They should either:

                      Get TWO free guerilla improvements, so they can jam around on hills (and get guerilla 3 for hill city attacks with a barracks):

                      Just get two movement points like Civ 3 Gallic Swordsmen and Impi

                      Stay with one guerilla one improvemnt, but cost 10 gold less than swordsmen and not need iron

                      Additionally, I think that all civ's UB's should replace buildings that are buildable before the industrial age. It is too much of a disadvantage to have to wait 5800 years to get your UB, no matter how good it is.

                      Lastly, I think that Charismatic losing half of its happiness with the advent of calendars should be removed. Monuments should continue giving happiness even after they go obsolete and are not buildable anymore. People do not stop appreciating (or building) monuments just because they know what day of the year it is...

                      Maybe monuments should just not go obsolete at all, a cheap building that just produces one culture in most cases is not a game breaker by any stretch.
                      "Cunnilingus and Psychiatry have brought us to this..."

                      Tony Soprano

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Blaupanzer


                        The French should get Guard Grenadiers for gosh sake! The unit most feared in Europe in the Napoleonic Era makes no appearance in Civ? Abomination! Shame on Firaxis! Plus 1 strength and same 2 speed as the musketeers would work fine thanks.
                        .
                        I agree with most of your post, except for this part. While the French getting a Grenadier UU instead of of the Musketeer makes a lot of sense, I think that a Grenadier with two movement points would be a hugely nasty UU without the extra strength point.
                        "Cunnilingus and Psychiatry have brought us to this..."

                        Tony Soprano

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                        • #13
                          So have UUs be leader specific, not civ specific. Louis gets the musketeer, Napoleon gets the grenadier guards.

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                          • #14
                            I hate the egyptian obelisk.

                            ok, you can use 2 priests, but I'm not going to have a whole lot of excess citizens to use for that pre-calendar.

                            celts-dun should give the gw guerilla 2, would be more interesting.

                            aztec sacrificial alter-
                            what can you whip effectively after you get code of laws? everything is getting to expensive at that point.

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                            • #15
                              I personally think alot of things need rebalancing.

                              It was okay to nerf the cossack, but then you have to boost some other units too.

                              Units that require some buffing:

                              -Navy SEAL

                              -Gallic Swordsman

                              -Numidian calvary (I mean, COME ON! This thing is the most pathetic excuse for ANYTHING I have EVER seen. If need be, get rid of it and replace it with some Numidian War Elephants, since the art is already made in rise of rome. )

                              -Praetorian (Just kidding)

                              -And of course, Super-deadly-ultra-radioactive-genocidal-killer-banana-man

                              And to all above stuff about UBs.

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