Trebuchets overpowered?

[Mergle]

Saw this thread at Civfanatics:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=179459

I'm not one to comment on a balance issue without playing, but thought I'd ask those who have Warlords: does the OP have a point?

The key question seems to be SP. There seems to be consensus that Trebuchets can be taken down in the open, but does that AI do this? Or does it just sit in its cities to be wiped out?

[dregor]

I think Trebuchets may be a bit powerful. The +100% when attacking cities is a little bit much IMO when you take into account the overall damage it's doing with the collateral hits. I assume most people are like me in that they always defend their siege in stacks of other units, so getting them out in the field is a tough job, especially since their strength of 4 pretty much guarantees they'll be last to defend in a stack.

That being said, it sure is nice to have a mid-level siege unit before canons!

[player1]

Are Catapults overpowdered in era of Archers?
Are Cannons overpowdered in era of Riflemen?

[LordTheRon]

I don't think they're a huge problem. Sure they are powerful weapons to take on cities, but they are weak in the field. You shouldn't wait till they hit your city but try to take them out before they reach your city. It just requires an adaption in strategy for players.

I do hope that the AI is capable of countering trebs though. I haven't played a full game of Warlords yet so I cannot comment on that. Perhaps Solver can clarify that.

[Mergle]

Originally posted by player1
Are Catapults overpowdered in era of Archers?
Are Cannons overpowdered in era of Riflemen?

The argument being made is that catapults will lose to defending archers, and cannons will lose to defending riflemen, but trebuchets will walk right over any equivalent-era defenders.

[dregor]

Originally posted by player1
Are Catapults overpowdered in era of Archers?
Are Cannons overpowdered in era of Riflemen?

Not in my opinion.
Not in my opinion.

Now if you'd like to post your opinion along with an explanation, that'd be cool

[yin26]

I think this just makes it a bit more challenging to turtle. Engaging these stacks in the field now makes good sense...or at least being ready with the right counters in your cities to get down to the trebs ASAP. Horse archers now have a better role to play, too. If this gives the AI a better chance at taking my cities, fair enough, though I've already adjusted. Finally, as mentioned, trebs now serve a good pre-cannon role. Anyway, if we see players ripping through things merely with treb-heavy forces (like artillery of the old days), then I'm sure Firaxis will respond.

[Will9]

A catapult's strength is 2 more than an archer and a trubuchets strength is 2 more than a longbow's when attacking a city. Chances are that the seige unit will have CR2-3, and the defender will have CD2-3. They are just as overpowering.

[sprudl]

Originally posted by Will9
A catapult's strength is 2 more than an archer and a trubuchets strength is 2 more than a longbow's when attacking a city. Chances are that the seige unit will have CR2-3, and the defender will have CD2-3. They are just as overpowering.

Wouldn't that actually make it less overpowering? A difference of 2 point matters less if the strength is higher overall.

Waiting for my copy...

[Thedrin]

That's inaccurate Will9. Longbowmen automatically get a defensive bonus when in a city taking them to 7.5.

Trebuchet attacking a city has a strength of 8.
Longbowman fortified in a city has a strength of 9.

CRIII trebuchet attacking a city has a strength of 11.
CGIII longbowman fortified in a city has a strength of 13.5.

Comparison: catapults vs. archers.

Catapult attacking a city: 5
Archer fortified in a city: 5.13

CRIII catapult attacking a city: 8.75
CGIII archer fortified in a city: 7.5

Trebuchet's aren't that strong in comparison.

The +100% bonus looks good and gives the trebuchet a nice boost out of the barracks but it actually serves to make trebuchets weaker in the long run since all future percentage bonuses will not alter its strength when attacking cities by a great deal relative to the strength bonuses of other units of its era.

Knight: 10?
Maceman: 8
Longbowman: 6
Crossbowman: 6
Pikeman: 5?
Trebuchet: 4

[Will9]

If the units in the city are green and the trebuchet isn't than the trebuchet is overpowering.

If the city is on a hill the trebuchet dosen't stand a chance.

[Nugog]

Originally posted by LordTheRon
I don't think they're a huge problem. Sure they are powerful weapons to take on cities, but they are weak in the field. You shouldn't wait till they hit your city but try to take them out before they reach your city. It just requires an adaption in strategy for players.

I do hope that the AI is capable of countering trebs though. I haven't played a full game of Warlords yet so I cannot comment on that. Perhaps Solver can clarify that.

I fully agree with your first point. Trebs need to be taken out before they reach your city walls, as I learnt the hard way.

As for your second, I've only played one game so far, and the AI did not seem overly efficient at dealing with them.

[anhalibut]

I've only played the Rise of Rome scenario, and they feel way too powerful to be in that scenario.

[Qwertqwert]

Powerful? Yes, maybe slightly overpowered. I think it would be better if it went to +75% attack against city.

[Nugog]

Again, it requires a change of strategy, trebuchets are vunerable on the field of battle - attack them there.

Once they are parked outside your city, you have a major problem.