Canals

[sparkyal]

I think CIV should at least look into the idea of having a canl system. It is very annoying to send ships around the world for like 15 turns because they move so slowly. Maybe even add a WW of the Panama Canal or the Suez Canal. The WW would make it chaeper to build other canals (engineering exp gained).

So, what do you guys think. and, yes, I added the banana option just so ceertain people would respond (you know who you are).

sparky

[UnOrthOdOx]

hmm...

I don't know. I build some cities specifically to be a canal as it is. I think adding them outside of that opens the door for a lot of abuse.

[LordShiva]

Re: Canals

Originally posted by sparkyal
and, yes, I added the banana option just so ceertain people would respond (you know who you are).

Who would do such a thing?

[gdijedi7]

I build some cities to be canals, but they generally stay small and unproductive. Here's my suggestion.

Use workers to build a canal. This is a massive project.
The canal can only be in that one square, two at the absolute max.
Land units crossing over the canal will be slowed down.
Canals over flat land only. All trees will be eliminated.
Canals can only be built between ocean squares. No canals heading inland.
Ships using the canal will be slowed down due to the use of locks. This takes time. Still, it's better than sailing all the way around a continent.
The square yields less food and production due to the loss of good land to the canal.

[Thedrin]

Not in the early game. As it is I try to build cities to get the benefits of a canal if its in a very useful place, e.g. every time I play terra maps the new world is roughly shaped like the Americas and has the potential for at least one potentially powerful canal city.

I'm in favour of being able to build late game canals as a worker improvement which connect two coastal squares across one flat land tile. This improvement should take a very long time to build. It should produce a large amount of commerce but no extra food or production. Possible associated technologies include steam power and industrialisation. Ships and land units are not slowed down by them since the use of locks and bridges doesn't take that long on the grand scale of year long turns.

Edited to take account of the ideas in gdijedi7's post.

[Prussia]

You'd have to make it take, around 50 turns anyways, or whatever based on the nearest cities production and worker rates.

It should take a while, but it sounds like a good idea.

[Thedrin]

On marathon mode maybe 48 but I was thinking more along the lines of 30 or 36.

[Prussia]

Hmm... Maybe.

IT should also depend on how deep and wide it's going to be, like if it's something like the panama canal, it could take 20 turns, but if you're cutting across the United States, it would take the whole game.

[Virdrago]

I voted no, as cities can be used as canals.

But, maybe have a limit on the size of the canal, if you can build one. Like, three spaces total?

If ships are in the canal during wartime, how would you work the combat? I've seen ground units attack ships in other people's ports (and accidentally attacked a warrior with my galley once), but I think it would be highly unlikely that an army would position itself so that a frigate can train it's side cannons at them when in a canal. Maybe a severe penalty for ships trapped in a canal?

[Thedrin]

More likely they wouldn't try to leave and the aggressor wouldn't be allowed enter the canal if doing so would immeadiately lead to it attacking the unit in the canal.

If canals are introduced I can think of no more important restriction than canals being a maximum length of 1 tile. Beyond that it would get ridiculous since, while it may be possible to program the AI to build single tile canals, it is probably impossible to get the AI to understand and build multiple tile canals effectively.

[ben04]

If canals are introduced I can think of no more important restriction than canals being a maximum length of 1 tile. Beyond that it would get ridiculous since, while it may be possible to program the AI to build single tile canals, it is probably impossible to get the AI to understand and build multiple tile canals effectively.

If the fasted ship available needs more than x turns to get from one coast to another and the canal can be build and costs less than y worker turns then build it.

I don't see why that shouldn't work for the AI.

[Thedrin]

I'm not saying they won't use them properly when they're present on the map. I'm saying that programming the AI to build them over multiple tiles could prove impossible. Even if it's not, human players will (and I guarantee this) be able to find so much more creative uses for multiple tile canals that the AI wouldn't think of that it would effectively be an exploit.

Canals must not be more than 1 tile in size.

[LordShiva]

Meh. Most canals connect inland water (rivers, lakes, etc.) which aren't navigable in Civ anyway. The Suez and Panama canals were built very recently in Civ terms, and deal mostly with merchant shipping, which isn't represented in Civ at all.

Therefore, "no, terrible idea," with a heavy banana bias.

[sparkyal]

Lordshiva, I put in the bananas just for you...you probably know that

I wanted to collect some feedback before putting out some details of what I was thinking.

1) Canals can only be 1 tile.
2) workers build them, and they take a really long time to build. although, with the Panama/Suez Canal WW or NW that time would be reduced dramatically
3) No food production in a canal
4) lot's of hammers and gold in a canal
5) Combat: just like in rea life, a ship caught in a canal is dead meat. In cities you loose your ships, same thing in canals. so you better make sure that ship is well protected (ground units may defend or occupy) in that canal. Ships cannot attack ships in canals.
6) I'm wavering on whether there should be a penalty for moving through a canal, probably so, maybe 2 MP?

Oh, and canals certainly have their military purpose. Control of the Sea is a major maritime doctrine and part of that doctrine involves the control of canals and straits. If the US lost control of the Panama canal in a war with the Soviets back in the 80's, that would be a disaster. Why do you think we defend the area so heavily? It is also yet another reason that Egypt is so important to us as well.

anyway, keep the diolog up! Hopefuly FireAxis is reading

sparky

[Thedrin]

I'd suggest adding a late game prerequisite technology like steam power or industrialisation.