Early Expanding

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Bah... Go back and re-read what you just wrote and you'll find the answer.

You're building all the buildings everywhere and then don't have the time/resources to expand.

I like harbors because of the trade routes and the health benefits, but they are an indirect way of gaining commerce and probably not the most beneficial. If you could have built another settler in the time it took you to build the harbor and you have a city site picked out, you would probably be better off building that extra city.

Over-expanding really isn't a problem on noble as long as you have the military to protect them and the workers to improve the land.

I can normally build 4-5 cities on Noble with 3-4 workers to improve the land before my research lowers below 100% due to gold from goodie huts.

There's no reason to have military in the cities for protection on Noble for a long time, and there's no reason to have them in the cities for happiness until I think it's size 6 that they get pissed if you don't have a military unit in them.

I know it seems 'scary' but try leaving your cities unattended. Sure.. have your military units in the vacinity, but don't leave them in the cities. Branch them out, explore the terrority and use that knowledge to build more cities.

If I'm playing noble, I don't normally go back and 'fortify' my cities until I'm pumping out axemen.

And don't forget that 4-5 cities at 80 or 90% research is most likely (unless you've screwed up your city placement), going to generate more overall research than 2-3 cities running at 100%.

Total beaker production is far more important than % of commerce allocated to research.

As is discussed in another thread, sometimes you can run at 0% research and produce more total beakers (thus gain techs quicker) through the use of specialists than you could working the land, not expanding as much, and running at 100% research.

So don't worry about keeping that research pegged at 100% or 90%. That's not the important figure... it's just the one that easiest to see because they give it to you. The important figure is how many total beakers you are generating.

Did you finish your latest game, btw, that you said was going very well? How did it turn out?

[eluciv]

Maybe a moot point, but I don't know if the settler right away build is really the best unless your second city has a food surplus equal to or better than the first city. In my experience, that second city is usally not close to as food heavy as the first. I would argue that waiting for the settler until your first city is down to a 2-food surplus would get you ahead quicker, since that second city rarely will have a 3-food surplus right away. First cities near even 2 floodplain tiles will grow way faster and also end up getting that settler out faster (relatively) if you can grow a bit first. I prefer to build a couple warriors and lift the darkness so I have better odds of seeing where the bronze is.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

I'm not sure anybody here was advocating a settler first start????

Settler first starts have their advantages, but they are most certainly dependant upon starting location and nearby special allocation.

The problem isn't that he should be building a settler first. In most cases, he shouldn't be.

The problem is that he isn't building the third or fourth settler quickly enough.

[RevMunky]

Im at around 1250AD now and i got 6 cities. Still way to slow compared to Court Haus but suppose im getting there (Although i must say that there isnt alot of more space left. Maybe 2 more spots within my own border)
Think i had about 4 cities by 1 AD, then i ran into jungle outside my cultural borders. Its the smaller continent of the few im sure

But the money problem is basicly gone now.. I can run Science 90% and still have +8 gold a turn. I think in my game those harbors really helped coz out of the 6 cities i got 4 that are coastal and ive build the Great Lighthouse. (Plus ofcourse the Con Shrine and the whole continent following Con )

And i only build extra buildings when i think i dont need more workers/settlers/units but could use a little more research or some happy faces in town (even its for future use) Ofcourse im in the proces of getting more workers, because i have ****loads of unimproved land right now.

I think in my recent game the money problem came from having to expand so quickly (told ya about that iron resource and the AI trying to get it so i had to use a city + Artist to grow) while i was still trying to get 2 other new cities to money making order (barely any worker improvements) To top that the culture bomb (like i expected) took over the Barbarian city on a coast near another seafood too and couldnt bring it up to just pillage it so took it over. Conquest wasnt really an option because the 2 AI on my continent are lovers or something. Friendly towards eachother really quick.

Now im trying to rebuild the economy. Suppose it was just bad timing because i found out to late that there was some iron on the other side of the continent

But all in all my Caravel is now on its way towards the other Continent with a Missionary getting seasick. Hope to make contact soon and get a Great Merchant soon to boost the cash to upgrade some units

Must thank ya guys for giving a noob like me so much time to help out!

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by RevMunky
(Plus ofcourse the Con Shrine and the whole continent following Con ) ... Conquest wasnt really an option because the 2 AI on my continent are lovers or something. Friendly towards eachother really quick.

I edited your text to highlight this: your religion is the cause of their friendliness. This doesn't mean you can't attack one of them...

And i only build extra buildings when i think i dont need more workers/settlers/units but could use a little more research or some happy faces in town (even its for future use) Ofcourse im in the proces of getting more workers, because i have ****loads of unimproved land right now.

It's not important that you have lots of unimproved land, this is normal. What is important is that your pop works high yield tiles. Otherwise whip 'em, or make them specialists.

One final point I have is that I'm not sure how you plan to win. I'd say Spaceship looks your best bet from your current position, so you need to plan your research path to optimally achieve this goal. Were you first to Liberalism? Or is it still undiscovered?

[RevMunky]

To be honest i didnt really have a winning plan These last few games ive played are usually just to get the basics of the game.. specially the beginning (Ancient and Classical Age)

Im still 3 techs away from Liberalism and im the most advanced civ in the game so not really there yet (need Philosophy, Paper and Education first)

It's not important that you have lots of unimproved land, this is normal. What is important is that your pop works high yield tiles. Otherwise whip 'em, or make them specialists.

-I guess ive always been trying to get the town to use as many tiles as possible in its radius... I suppose its not really that needed considering some tiles are just hard to improve. But then another question arises and another issue where i always have problems balancing my gameplay:

What tiles to improve and what not ?
Improve tiles so they give at least 3 food/production (like build a farm on some grassland when your lacking floodplains/special food resources, or making cottages on floodplains because they already give alot of food ?) and then when all those tiles are being used and your left with some forests and plains use specialist/whiping to continue instead of trying to grow more and improve those tiles too ?

This game sure is alot bout balancing

edit: Oh bout that attacking them... The thing is they are Friendly with eachother and had a long time where they were only Pleased with me. So waring 1 might be waring 2. From an expanding viewpoint my economy really couldnt handle a big militairy to fight em both

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by RevMunky
To be honest i didnt really have a winning plan These last few games ive played are usually just to get the basics of the game.. specially the beginning (Ancient and Classical Age)

Getting the basics is fair enough, but the basics of Domination gameplay are very different from the basics of Spaceship building, and given that 'it depends' is a stock beginning to most answers then knowing your goals is very helpful all round.

Im still 3 techs away from Liberalism and im the most advanced civ in the game so not really there yet (need Philosophy, Paper and Education first)

Liberalism's free tech makes it a key milestone, so you want to beeline for it.

What tiles to improve and what not ?
Improve tiles so they give at least 3 food/production (like build a farm on some grassland when your lacking floodplains/special food resources, or making cottages on floodplains because they already give alot of food ?)

Vel's guide looks at this in some depth IIRC, but my 'default' choices are to cottage FPs (unless there's a goldmine to be worked). As for grassland, I'd default to cottages as well in most circumstances, and almost always if they're riverside tiles. However, I'd farm one riverside grassland (maybe lots later) to chain irrigation. The odd mine here and there. The main thing is, however, that every city should have a food special within its fat cross. That's not always possible, but such locations should only be settled for strategic resources. Otherwise, let the AI build them then take them by force.

...and then when all those tiles are being used and your left with some forests and plains use specialist/whiping to continue instead of trying to grow more and improve those tiles too ?

Yup, that's about the size of it, especially as they'll be costing money to support. Basically, by working a tile is the pop contributing more than it would as whip-fodder (44/h pop on Epic), or as a specialist (Scientists to add GPP for the GS who builds the Academy, for example). I tend to whip. See Blake's threads for much more info.

edit: Oh bout that attacking them... The thing is they are Friendly with eachother and had a long time where they were only Pleased with me. So waring 1 might be waring 2. From an expanding viewpoint my economy really couldnt handle a big militairy to fight em both

Sure, you could handle it, but you need to commit to the strategy. If you have a very big and scary military the victim will find allies hard to find.

[Arrian]

Make sure to use a great prophet to create the religious shrine of whatever religion you found & use as your state religion. That city gets a market, grocer and bank as soon as possible, and Wall Street later on. That right there will do good things for your finances. Certain techs (currency) and wonders (G.Lighthouse) can help too.

I typically found my 2nd city well before 1000bc. I don't really pay attention to dates, though, so I can't give an accurate one for that...

Remember that 50% science for a civ with 1000 total commerce = more research power than 90% science for a civ with 500 total commerce.

-Arrian

[RevMunky]

Yea i suppose i should focus more on Cottages.. they really seem to do wonders for your income/research. Ive been using alot of farms the last game to really grow, but like you said too; plains and forest dont really work well.

I suppose good use of specialists actually works better than using alot of tiles. So next games ill tone down those farms to 1 or 2 when a city needs some growth to get all the good tiles. I usually put mines on all the hills i have in the fat cross to max out production (had like 2-3 production towns in this game... hilly situation ) What im not used to yet is Workshops, Windmills, Watermills and Lumbermills... Havent really used any of em so far

Must mention it again; thanks for all the tips. You dont see that often that people help so much on forums

[Cort Haus]

Rev, in my game I had a nice spacious starting area with a stone spot for the second city (barracks & units) and a floodplains for the third (settlers and workers) and was able to build the Pyramids in the capital. Plus a decent spread of nice resources like pigs and horses. It isn't always like that, and I wouldn't always focus as much on expansion at the cost of, say, religion and specialists for GPs, but it showed what can be done.

What you must do when expanding is build up commerce. There's nothing wrong with running 50% science if your commercial income is high enough, and libraries are in place in commerce-rich cities.

Either city specialisation with heavy cottages in certain cities, or the more balanced approach described by Vel is valid, and the best option can depend on terrain. A coastal site with lots of grassland is great for commerce, but sometimes the terrain is best suited for a bit of commerce everywhere. Technically, city specialisation is more efficient, as you only need to build commerce multipliers in commerce cities, but a balanced empire is more able to lose a city or two without getting, well ... unbalanced. Vel's rule-of-thumb was : for every three pop, try and work one production tile, one food tile, and one commerce tile. It rarely pans out quite like that, but following it while expanding can help avoid the economic slump of over-expansion.

Sailing and Currency are key cash-techs early on as they start the trade income flowing. The more cities you have, the more Open Border agreements you need to keep all your cities around 2g for each foreign trade route, rather than 1g per domestic one. This is especially true post-currency. Of course, Open Border agreements can be costly diplomatically, so you have to find out who hates who, but having no state religion helps here, and compensates somewhat for passing up the happy and shrine opportunities.

It's worth playing a game or two with a 'no-religion' policy, just to stop relying on shrine income if it is part of the furniture of your games. Merchants and settled Great Merchants are a very viable alternative to shrine income, and a cottage-giant probably doesn't need either. Remember, it doesn't matter where the slider is as much as whether you're generating competitive amounts of science.