Changing Civics

[rah]

I like to drop into police state during wars or theo when i'm the russians and it's time for cosacks. When not at war there's no need for either so I'll switch these two on or off at least 4 times a game alone.

I'll switch religions or civics if it will keep me out of war in those games when I'm lagging in tech and need a little extra time to catch up before the **** hits the fan.

Dropping into and out of emancipation during wars is sometimes necessary.

I'll use most of the relgious civics.

Only a few times for financial ones.

I used to do vassalage along with theo, but it's not necessary and other civics help more.

IT's a long game so I'm surprised others don't switch more.

[Cort Haus]

IT's a long game so I'm surprised others don't switch more.

30 missed turns (on normal) is still a fair old chunk of the game, though.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
My game play is too varied for a fixed pattern of civics changes. Unless I'm in a very low-food area I'll usually switch to Slavery straight away, though, as I poprush quite a bit now. Bureaucracy is too good to delay when it comes on-line, as might be Free Religion if there are tensions to be eased.

I tend to go for calendar resources before monarchy, and these happies plus poprushing limits the urgency of HR.

Non-religous paths need less civics changes, as do low-specialist games (no cause for jumping in and out of OR, Pacif, Theo, Caste). I'm a bit of a trade whore so I don't use Mercantilism unless I'm isolated geographically or diplomatically, or have the Pyramids.

At a guess I'd say 5-10 changes overall when non-SPI, depending on blah blah etc.

About the same here - 6 or 7 changes for me.

Early civic route is Slavery, religious civic (Pacifism or Org) and Bureaucracy. Then it's a case of hunkering down until the Renaissance civics arrive and will usually take about three changes here to implement them all.

Never used Theocracy - it's too negative and the extra experience does little to help combat units.

Hered Rule is also a negative civic and it’s a long time since I used that one.

Even with Pyramids, Philo leader and Pacifism I’d still probably not run Mercantilism if I had full trade routes and open borders.

[DrSpike]

Looks like everyone is pretty close to my level of switching.

[QuixotesGhost]

Never used Theocracy - it's too negative and the extra experience does little to help combat units.

Oh, I totally disagree. Being able to start with City Raider II right out of the barracks makes a huge impact. Or instant Cover, Pinch, or Shock. I always make Theology a priority if I'm planning on going on the warpath.

The main problem is one of timing. You'll want Org. Religeon to get forges up. Plus Theocracy is better the earlier you get it, when you'll be relying on swords, axes and maces instead of knights and calvary for your heavy hitting. I think melee units get a more out of experience then almost any other unit. So it's good to get when you'll be relying on melee units more.

I think Theocracy is why Spiritual civs make better warmongers than Aggressive ones, becuase you can have it switched on for every war.

[DirtyMartini]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Looks like everyone is pretty close to my level of switching.

I march through pretty much as described by others but always get to the end and tell myself I could have been more efficient and put them to better use. Oh well.

[rah]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Looks like everyone is pretty close to my level of switching.

I was hoping blake would post.

And I keep thinking about when my mother would tell me. "if everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you want to do it too"

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by rah
And I keep thinking about when my mother would tell me. "if everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you want to do it too"

So you are describing everyone who uses fewer non-Spi civic changes than you as suicidal?

[rah]

No, not really.
Just saying just because a lot of others are taking full advantage of civics will not stop me from doing it.
(and I still believe the sample size so far is a bit small to make the generalization)

[DrSpike]

Well I admire the confidence of someone who believes they are right and everyone else wrong.

However, I think you'd be best advised to try less than 20-30 switches and see how you get on. I'm sure it would improve your play.

[Quillan]

All that switching is fine if you're playing a spiritual leader. However, I couldn't manage that much anarchy if not. I play on marathon, and anarchy starts at about 3 turns and increases later up to about 5 turns for civics changes. That's a lot of wasted time if I switched that much.

[rah]

Haven't tried marathon yet, but I'm sure that would curb my habit a touch.

And no, I don't think everyone else is wrong, but still not convinced that I am.

If I can improve getting a tech from 15 turns to 12 turns by changing civics an blowing a turn, I say why not. Yes you must calculate the value of a lost production turn but the name of the game is staying ahead of the tech race.

When my cities are unhappy and changing to police state will help most of them be more productive then it makes sense. When the war is over, change back. I guess I'm in too many wars.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by rah

If I can improve getting a tech from 15 turns to 12 turns by changing civics an blowing a turn, I say why not. Yes you must calculate the value of a lost production turn but the name of the game is staying ahead of the tech race.

Naturally. Please post an example of such a switch that isn't bureaucracy, which I always adopt as soon as I get it. I doubt you can find one to be honest.

Even if you can it has to be repeatable to make 20-30 switches worthwhile, and I don't see how that can be the case.

Originally posted by rah

When my cities are unhappy and changing to police state will help most of them be more productive then it makes sense. When the war is over, change back. I guess I'm in too many wars.

Yeah that does look to be part of the problem, though I already posted my views on how you can improve and cut out those switches.

[rah]

I've had representation do that.
Free religion can later in the game
Merchantism if you have the money. free scientists in all your cities can be quite helpful. (under the right circumstances)
Caste system if you have the food surplus.

Maybe you should be using the civics a bit more.
I've seen drastic differences.

Of course this probably explains your MP games.

[Blake]

Goverment:
Typically 2-4 switches a game. With pyramids it may occasionally make sense to run Rep all game. More usually a progression of hereditary rule -> Rep -> Suffrage will be used, or H.Rule -> Police State (for "Steel" Domination - the final switch done upon capturing Pyramids).

Legal:
Typically 1-2 switches a game. I usually select ethier vassalage or bureaucracy and then stick with it for a long time. Free Speech is usually an upgrade over Big.B. Vassalage is often kind of nessecary until Pentagon, and with Pentagon it is useful combined with Theocracy (10exp everywhere!). As an Organized leader I'll probably stick with Vassalage all game.

Labor:
Typically 1-2 switches a game. Slavery all game is quite possible for "Steel" Domination. Otherwise Emancipation blackmails itself into the labor system - there's rarely a reason for non-spiritual to run Serfdom or Caste and Emancipation is forever so it's hard to imagine anything other than Slavery -> Emancipation.

Economy:
Typically 2 switches a game. I usually switch to either Merchantalism or Free Market depending on the trade situation (Merchantalism is one of the few civics with a penalty), State Property is usually an upgrade over both Merchantalism and Free Market, if the health situation is permamently dire Enviromentalism can be quite useful.
Usually goes Merchantalism/Free Market -> State Property/Enviromentalism, with all 4 combos possible - but Merc->SP being the most common.

Religion:
Typically 1-3 switches a game. As an Organized leader I usually stick with organized religion all game, maybe switching to Theocracy if I go into full domination mode, the diplomatic situation may mandage going from Paganism to Free Religion. Most often though I probably make 2 switches a game, nearly all combinations are possible.

On average I probably make 11 switches a game, piggybacks may reduce the number of turns of Anarchy required.
As an Organized leader going for Domination I make far fewer switches, once to H.Rule+Org.Rel, once to Vassalage, once to Merchantalism, then a final switch to Police State + Vassalage + Slavery/Emancipation + State Property + Theocracy - so as little as 6 turns may be spent in Anarchy.

I don't tend to piggyback switches much, the ones most likely to be piggybacked due to timing include:
H.Rule and Org.Rel, Free Speech and Free Religion

Some switches aren't high priority so probably will get piggybacked, these include civics like Free Market, Police State*, Suffrage, Emancipation*, Theocracy. (*altough sometimes the happiness benefit is huge enough to justify an immediate switch)

Some civics are so useful they are switched to immediately (should they actually be useful given the circumstances), these include ones like Org.Rel, H.Rule, Bureacracy, Merchantalism, Rep, Vassalage, Pacifism, State Property.

You'll note Org.Rel is in all 3 categories - it can take as little time as 4x Anarchy Period to pay off in terms of build speed, but it can also provide a lot less benefit if not much is being built, and the cost of running it can be a factor.

At Epic speed by default it takes 1 turn to switch 1 civic and 2 turns to switch 2 - so there's no benefit to piggybacking until much later in the game when it gets weird and can take 2 turns to switch 1 civic and 3 turns to switch 3 civics.


Note some things do continue to function during Anarchy:
1) Units move - while your first settler is moving is a good time for early anarchy.
2) Workers continue to work.
3) Captured cities come out of revolt - right at the end of a war is a good time for Anarchy.
4) You get income from selling resources.
5) AI "refusals to deal" naturally go away - if you are waiting on an AI for some reason (ie to resume going to war, or for a vital tech to become tradable) it can be a good time for Anarchy.

Note that Anarchy can be quite profitable if your economy stinks and you get a lot of income from others - all your expenses are nixed but you get the income. Likewise if you're paying gold for stuff it's a bad time for Anarchy - cancel those deals if you think it can be renegotiated because you don't get benefit from the purchased resource anyway.

Originally posted by rah
I was hoping blake would post.