Changing Civics

[DrSpike]

It's much better this way though than in earlier games, since any given period of anarchy is usually only 1 turn at a time. In Civ3 you usually had one period of anarchy per game of much longer, which felt much much worse. In Civ2 if you knew the years to revolt you could get away with none.

I think they've pitched it pretty well in Civ4.

[Ming]

Yeah... I like the balance. But if you change civs often, it's amazing how many turns you end up lossing. There is something to say about being spiritual... but it's not one of my favorite traits.

[DrSpike]

Well if you aren't it encourages good planning.

On most games I make 3-5 changes, often getting 2 switches in at once as it is still one turn.

[rah]

It's my opinion that if you only change 3-5 times a game, you're either winning really early, or you're not taking advantage of the civics enough.

[DrSpike]

Must be the first then.

Typical cultural game is:

HR + Slavery
OR + Bureaucracy (these 4 can switch around depending on circumstances)

Pacificm, mostly with free speech, sometimes before and with caste.

Free speech if not above.

US + FM. (US only for buy strats obviously, so it's optional)

The last 2 can be separate, which would give a maximum possibility of 6, though I don't recall ever using more than 5.

Typical space:

HR + slavery
Bureaucracy (+ OR optional)
FR (sometimes with FM - might be separate)
US + Emancipation (sometimes staggered depending on happiness. If so can squeeze in a late FS)

Again a max of 6, though again I don't recall every using 6. To be fair I don't recall ever using just 3 either, but certainly with 4-5 you can get everything you need out of the civics. It just requires a little planning.

[rah]

Culture games are a bit different but you've confirmed that you don't take advantage of the civics enough.

How about religous revolts?

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by rah
Culture games are a bit different but you've confirmed that you don't take advantage of the civics enough.

Well if you'd care to match your skills against my insufficient civic switching in a comparison game I'd be glad to oblige. Any more than the above is (for the most part - no firm rules in Civ4, which I like) ill-advised.

Originally posted by rah
How about religous revolts?

Yes, this is usually one turn added to the above, but is not a civic switch, of course.

[rah]

But it's still a turn lost if you're not spiritual.

When I go for culture wins I still end up fighting when I fall behind in techs. (Monarch and above) So the changes to theo and Police state are usually required. Also the financial civics are put into play frequently. I'll also change civics/religions at key times to avoid war. I can handle when one or two start docpiling but when the 3rd and 4th start, it's usually the end of a pleasant game.

I usually don't play comparison games since the last few times I did, it was obvious that some of the others were resetting. I only play SP for fun or training for MP. which some would say I need to play more SP.

[DrSpike]

I switch religions too on occasions, but this isn't a civic switch, which is what the 3-5 referred to.

Tbh you shouldn't need civic switches to deal with pile threats. Once you get a feel for how big an army and how decent a relationship you need with anyone that is a threat to prevent piling you're set. Skimping on the military is the main reason for piles - better to build a few more units than have to switch civics and fight a probably costly war. My 'insufficient' civic switching reflects the fact that I can usually avoid piles and therefore the need for random civic switches,

And as for reloading Civ4 comes equipped with the review that tells you how often someone has reloaded. Ok I'm sure it's not foolproof but it seems to work pretty well to me, as I often use it to see how many sittings I finished the game in.

[rah]

So how about everyone else? How many times in an average game do you switch civs. Feel free to toss in add info to explain. If I'm spiritual(rare) I'll swich over 40 times. If not, maybe 20-30.

[Quillan]

Generally speaking, I adopt Slavery the moment it becomes available to me. I usually adopt Bureaucracy the moment it becomes available, and these days I usually also grab Hereditary Rule ASAP. I get Organized Religion soon after it's available, but I may wait a few turns depending on what's going on at the time. I generally don't adopt Mercantilism, going for Free Trade instead. Organized Religion gives way to Free Religion later, Bureaucracy gives way to Free Speech, Slavery changes to Emancipation, and Hereditary Rule changes to Universal Sufferage typically. Free Trade may change to State Property if I have a really large empire. I rarely adopt Vassalage or Theocracy unless I really need it, and normally that's due to a war.

I normally do not adopt a state religion until I find out what my neighbors have adopted. I generally manually switch from my chosen state religion to No State Religion just before I switch to Free Religion.

Under normal circumstances, that's the changes I make in a typical game. If the situation is different, I may wind up in a wildly different set of choices.

[Arrian]

Ideally, I will do 1 switch to Slavery and Bureacracy. Then another to Hed Rule and Org Rel (or maybe Rep if I built the Pyramids). Sometimes I don't get BW before the CS slingshot is done, though, so I may actually switch to Bur all by its lonesome and then do a Slavery/Hed Rule/Org Rel switch later.

The next switch I'm likely to make is to Mercantalism, perhaps with Pacifism as well. Or maybe just Merc, and Pac+Rep later. Sometimes when I do the Merc switch, I throw in Serfdom too. I don't poprush much.

Then US/Emancipation/Free Trade/Free Religion.

As for state religion, I tend to wait as long as I can before adopting one if any of my neighbors have a differing religion. Basically, I wait until I need the happiness. This may give me time to convert some neighbors, or to build up my military.

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

My game play is too varied for a fixed pattern of civics changes. Unless I'm in a very low-food area I'll usually switch to Slavery straight away, though, as I poprush quite a bit now. Bureaucracy is too good to delay when it comes on-line, as might be Free Religion if there are tensions to be eased.

I tend to go for calendar resources before monarchy, and these happies plus poprushing limits the urgency of HR.

Non-religous paths need less civics changes, as do low-specialist games (no cause for jumping in and out of OR, Pacif, Theo, Caste). I'm a bit of a trade whore so I don't use Mercantilism unless I'm isolated geographically or diplomatically, or have the Pyramids.

At a guess I'd say 5-10 changes overall when non-SPI, depending on blah blah etc.

[Yosho]

After they increased the maint cost for slavery, sometimes, if I'm not spiritual and don't have food-heavy cities, I don't switch to slavery at all.

I usually switch to org religion, and keep it all game. In economics, I switch to free speech, and then often later to State Property depending on other factors.

In government, I switch to hereditary rule if and only if I need the happiness (some games I don't use hereditary rule at all; other games I wait as long as possible before switiching.) Sometimes I switch to slavery when I do that, sometimes not. Later in the game, I switch to Representation.

I always switch to Beaurocracy, sometimes I switch to Free Speech late in the game.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by rah
So how about everyone else? How many times in an average game do you switch civs. Feel free to toss in add info to explain. If I'm spiritual(rare) I'll swich over 40 times. If not, maybe 20-30.

20-30