Who do you is better: Mansa or Shaka?

[couerdelion]

I’ve got up to 665AD in my Mansa game and there are already some significant differences between it and the Shaka game. Here are some basic stats comparing the Mansa 665AD position with Shaka 710AD (3 turns later)

Cities: Mansa 5 vs Shaka 12
Science: Mansa 178 vs Shaka 135
Gold: 0 vs -6
Production: 38 vs 66

Using a basic Production/Gold/Science values of 1.5/1/1, this gives a comparative score at this stage of the game as Mansa’s 235 to Shaka’s 228 so Mansa is approximately 10% ahead if I allow for the difference in the dates.

But Shaka’s costs, despite the Ikhanda benefits are clearly going to be more of a problem so I wonder if Shaka may have acquired a hidden benefit that Mansa has yet to gain (the inherent growth of a larger number of cities.

There are a few other comparisons I can make of these snapshots

Technology Mansa leads by 3 techs (Metal Casting, Machinery and Drama). Hardly surprising given the science and financial advantage he enjoys.

Great People Mansa is far better organised in this department having acquired two GPs to Shaka’s one (excluding the free artist which were both settled). What is more, Mansa’s GP generating infrastructure is more advanced than Shaka’s with two cities generating over 20 GPP/turn. If I recall, Shaka was a little unfortunate with his GPs acquiring two Great Artists while still needing a Prophet for a shrine. Here is where Mansa’s spiritual trait comes into it’s own because it allows switching between civics. Run for a number of terms with Caste System and Pacifism and then switch to Slavery and Organised Religion for building/general population control.

Wonders Somewhat surprisingly perhaps, Mansa is ahead here also. Both had built the Great Library but Mansa has completed both the Oracle and Angkor Wat.

Religion Both have Confucianism and Taoism but Mansa has the same city as holy city for each religion. In the longer term this has huge benefit and when it comes to spreading religions will not suffer so greatly from the 3 missionary limit. At any point in time there could be missionaries in the field ready to bring in +12.6 gpt (or +18.6gpt with Wall Street.

It remains to be seen whether or not Mansa can maintain the small lead of if Shaka’s advantage in growing cities pays off over a longer term. No doubt war is on the cards soon so much might depend on how well this is played and if the strategic goals are sound. Fortunately Mansa’s macemen are likely to be a bit too strong for neighbours who have yet to acquire Longbows so I expect I will send them on the war path very soon and the city shortfall will be redressed a little. At the moment, though, Mansa looks to have a slight advantage.

[kittenOFchaos]

In the 2 ccc 1vs1 finals I won, both were with Mansa and the second was against Shaka.

Skirmisher get out early enough to choke effectively and then financial allows in combination with mining as a starting tech to find and sit ontop of their bronze/iron.


Once Shaka is deprived of such resources he is of no use to no bugger


Edit: Now 3 CCC 1vs1 Finals and all Mansa

[couerdelion]

Well I got a big shock yesterday in my Mansa game. During a fairly straightforward war to remove the threat of the Incas – in which my economy has basically stalled – I managed to get one caravel out to see. It turns out that there is just one other continent and this is shared by the five other civs.

Here’s the worry though. All of these civs have Judaism (sponsored by Cyrus) and several of those civs have a higher score than my Mansa. And Shaka is among this group. Technologically, the likes of Mao and Roosevell are not far behind me which is a worry since I won’t have the luxury in this game of delaying Liberalism or any of the key wonder techs that I want. No doubt these guys are researching well and trading amongst each other while I’m currently a religious loner on my continent. I think I need to let one of them found Islam just to let a little discord grow over there.

Whether these become a problem for me is something I will have to wait and see. But at the moment, the Mansa game looks to be running into far greater problems than the Shaka one despite being ahead in techs, wonders and GP at this stage of the game.

I’m rather tempted to throw away any semblance of making friends with my neighbours and simply go on a mass conquest binge while I have the crucial military advantage. Science will suffer for a while but some settled GS in the capital will keep things ticking over while gold multipliers, courthouses and a shrine are being built. The University of Sankore will also supplement the science during this period. The only problem with this is that the aggregate science/gold and production is likely to stay quite static or fall during this period.

Well we shall see……

[couerdelion]

Latest update - Mansa's economy has all but stalled and he was very stupid to allow Huayna to exist as a vassal state - against my advice

The worst thing here is that he automatically introduces Huayna to his friends across the ocean so there's an immediate tech trading link now between the two continents. Despite having access to HC's research records Mansa is confused how his Inca vassal managed to acquire Engineering and Paper in the same turn while not having anything to trade in return.

It seems there is little point in having a strong tech rate if your rivals simply up the ante by accelerating their own development.

[AshenPlanet]

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It seems there is little point in having a strong tech rate if your rivals simply up the ante by accelerating their own development.

First off, I think Hapshepsut is the best african leader...


When you are far ahead tech wise, the ai players will trade with you less, and trade with themselves more.
The amount of research or money they demand in return is also directly proportionate to how far ahead you are in tech.
Is that unfair?
I don't think so.

If you are militaristically ahead, they tend to ally against you, and choose religions that you didn't found.
Even if an ai has more cities following your religion than one founded by another civ, they will often choose the other over yours if you have the most land.

These things just make sense, and it's what I do when I'm not in the lead.
I will also try to make friends with the 'fringe' players to get help and try to topple the guy in the lead.

That's why things like oracle reward have their downsides too.
Getting ahead makes trading harder and more expensive as it should.
The stupid civ can trade/buy techs easier from ai civs, and the meek civs can get their religions to spread easier.

Also, the other factor you have to keep in mind is that when you rail against the world and declare war with everybody, they will slow their research to build up defenses instead.
So, in effect, you are not just slowing your own research, but you're slowing down the research of the entire world.
By staying peaceful, researching, and trading tech, you are greatly accellerating the advancement of the entire world (not always to your advantage).

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[binTravkin]

Nubianmercenary, seeing how you just love zulu's why don't you change your forum name to something more zulu-ish, there's simply some conflict when I see a 'Nubian' in zulu colors and claiming zulu are better than mali's (who happen to not live far and be a bit relative to nubians)..

[couerdelion]

It had always been my view that a healthy strong Finanial civ should easily out-tech any AI out there and by trading carefully you don’t leave many gaps for the AI to exploit in trading. Hell, I even gave my vassal Huayna Literature and Drama so that they would not trade with some of the more advanced civs that they had never met. :Next thing I know Huayna has acquired Civil Service and Paper and the only thing I can assume from the diplo screen was that Augustus had gifted them to HC!!

The contrast in the two games is striking. Mansa and Shaka are developing. While Mansa seems well capable of maintaining a technological edge over the Shaka game – though not in production – there is a much smaller gap between Mansa and his rivals. When looking at any factor in the Shaka game, it was clear that he was creating a huge lead for himself in every measure. Mansa is not even top of the GNP list!!

[Quillan]

It sounds like the differences in the setups of those two games is the cause of the difference. Is it possible to use the worldbuilder to change the civ you're playing? If so, the true test would be to load up that initial save for the Shaka game, replace the Zulu units with Malinese units and play the same game out as Mansa.

[couerdelion]

It is difficult to find situation that are truly comparable and I do not know how to amend the files to switch nations once you have started – my guess is that you would need to amend the savegames.

Now Mansa’s game is really starting to accelerate with the arrival of banks, universities, printing press, shrine, etc. In comparative terms it’s still the same as earlier with a relatively low production but high research capacity giving Mansa a lead in techs (7 at latest count). Having said that, the forced research of Liberalism earlier will have given a simple immediate boost from the Economics free GM but I will have lost out because I was denied the opportunity to extract a much larger tech – Shaka took Steam Power as his free tech.

The relatively close tech race (Cyrus, Mao and Roosevelt are not far behind) actually makes me more active in selling techs (generally at 15-20% of the beaker price). So I am partly responsible for holding a small lead over the AI in tech terms. Since the option is to allow them to trade among themselves, I’m happy enough to take a small contribution if my trades reduce the inter-AI trading activity.

As things currently stand, I rather think Mansa is the favourite to win this one. With Rep Parts almost finished and the next target Nationalism -> Constitution, I’ve a feeling that the Spiritual trait will start to become very strong when it allows an instant Representation/Mercantilism/Pacifism switch.

[couerdelion]

Mansa is almost certain to win this one in terms of stage of development, GDP, Production. Having completed the Statue of Liberty nearly 30 turns ahead, all I need to do now is to play the time out to the position where Shaka had done the same and see where they stand. And I think Mansa will probably win on almost every level with the possible exception of number of cities.

Certainly, if I were to “transport” Mansa into the game I had with Shaka then I would have possibly had a reasonable chance of hurting the Zulus while there would be little chance of doing much serious damage the other way round. By the time I get to 1750 - when Shaka was fighting with Cavalry, Grenadier, Cannon, Machine Guns, Frigates and Galleons – it’s likely that Mansa will have Battleships, Tanks, Infantry, Artillery (and possibly aircraft). What makes Mansa even more powerful at this stage is the ability to switch civics momentarily. Just 5 turns at Nationhood would allow at least 20 infantry to be drafted. Financial is also helping a lot given the bonus it gives to basic tiles improved with anything other than farms and workshops.

By contrast, Shaka’s traits basically allow him to grow cities a little larger or hurry development of new cities with the cheap granaries. Mansa just has to spend a few turns of Universal Suffrage and granaries can be set up even faster.

UU - As we already said, Shaka’s is a one-trick unit and this trick is not a core civ need. Mansa’s makes it cheaper to defend cities in the early game.

UB - Shaka’s is OK and definitely makes an impact in the Pre “State Property” Age. After that it’s a flat rate per city and almost certainly less than the 10% gold benefit from Mansa’s mint. What’s more, Mansa’s building is a “must” build in every city. Shaka’s UB is not so imperative even if it does come at half-price.

[popejubal]

Originally posted by couerdelion

UB - Shaka’s is OK and definitely makes an impact in the Pre “State Property” Age. After that it’s a flat rate per city and almost certainly less than the 10% gold benefit from Mansa’s mint. What’s more, Mansa’s building is a “must” build in every city. Shaka’s UB is not so imperative even if it does come at half-price.

When you are stacking "additive" bonuses, the Civ method of adding multiple bonuses makes each bonus worth less than it "should" be.
+50% and +50% end up as +100% instead of +125%

When you are stacking "subtractive" bonuses, though, the Civ method of adding multiple bonuses makes each bonus worth more than it "should" be. Ikhanda + Courthouse:
-20% maintenance + -50% maintenance = -70% under Civ stacking.
Under "correct" percentage changes, it would be
1-[(1-.2)*(1-.5)] = 60% maintenance discount.

That means Shaka is paying 4/5 the maintenance costs per city that everyone else pays comparing a city with an Ikhanda but without Courthouse to the other Civs' cities without Courthouses. More importantly, though, it means that after Courthouses, Shaka Zulu's cities will pay 3/5 the maintenance costs that other cities will pay. The only thing I would consider better would be if he were Agressive and Organized or Agressive and Spiritual so that he could get the delightful no-Anarchy bit or the extra discount on Civic costs and courthouse production.

Shaka Zulu's city maintenance costs being 3/5 what they "should" be is turning out to be an enormous help to me in my current game. My only regret is that Blake's AI is so much better than I am used to that I've been caught with a military that isn't as large as I should have and I have recently had to endure Anarchy to switch civics and religions to avoid a war.

[Nubianmercenary]

: It seems that Shaka is very good at waging wars, but not very good at maintaining them for long periods of time......






NubianMercenary

[Nubianmercenary]

:However, Shaka Zulu is still better, since wars are his forte, and lets be honest here, those in civ4 who cannot wage war, will not be succesfull.





NubianMercenary

[jkp1187]

Since England used to own vast tracts of Africa, ENGLAND/CHURCHILL is the best Military civ, narrowly beating out France/Napoleon.



(Sorry, I just can't resist posting in these wildly off-topic threads... Though I'm still waiting for someone to say that ROME is the best African civ...)

To answer the OP's subject line question, I think I will go with Shaka. Those impis make an early rush possible, coupled with the barracks-UB (i forget the name) with corruption-reducing characteristics, means that Shaka won't run out of cash with a massive early expansion.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Nubianmercenary
:However, Shaka Zulu is still better, since wars are his forte, and lets be honest here, those in civ4 who cannot wage war, will not be succesfull.

NubianMercenary

But this would presume that Shaka is better at fighting wars than Mansa. In the long run, I don’t believe that this is true. Mansa’s tech rate and flexible civics allow him to churn put some pretty serious units without so much as stopping to catch breath.

As for Churchill, I’ve yet to figure out what he is good for. He still looks to be the third best of the English leaders available