How to get Astronomy ASAP?

[ldeska]

Hi,

I often play 1 on 1 games (with another human player) on separated continents. Continents are usually separated by ocean, so if you want to attack, you need Astonomy. I wonder how soon it is possible to get Astronomy to be the first one to attack...
I saw one player posting a way that let him get Astronomy around 1AD, do you think it is possible to get it faster.
Usually we play using mirror map, tiny size, normal speed, prince level, no barbarians, always war.

Leszek

[johnmcd]

The via Liberalism route is the one you are referencing I believe, I think it's extremely unlikely you could do faster than that.

[Thedrin]

If you're starting on an isolated island with no hope of warring or trading with anyone until after the discovery of Astronomy (as the scenario you give seems to imply) then why not just research it by ordinary means.

Go straight for Calender and Optics and then research Astronomy. As soon as you get optics start creating Caravels. While you're researching Astronomy use the Caravels to harry your opponents coastal cities (I'm assuming you both plan to fight it out). Once you get Astronomy use the next generation of ships to continue the harrasment of his coast. The redartation of his coastal cities (and the stifling of his economy and scientific research that goes with that) should give you plenty of time to catch up with him after you get Astronomy.

Given the lack of any military threat (no barbarians) prior to your opponents discovery of caravels and more advanced ships if you go immeadiately for Astronomy in this way you don't face to much threat to your civilization.

[Elledge]

I would be extremely interested in a way to get Astronomy with Liberalism by 1 AD. I can get Liberalism before then, but to run the tech path up to Astronomy usually delays discovery until at least 500 AD at best.

Got a link?

[Swiss Pauli]

It's the Deep Slingshot thread: http://apolyton.net/forums//showthre...hreadid=154325

[ldeska]

I wonder what for you need Liberalism and Astronomy? I would be more interested in Astronomy-Chemistry combo, as it allows me:
1) to travel across ocean squares
2) build grenadiers
so in the scenario I've presented, those two technologies are crucial. Liberalism is very nice as it gives free tech, but does it give anything worth beside it? Civics it unlocks (Free Speech and Free Religion) are not overwhelming. Free Speech in BC is almost worthless - how many towns (to get +2gold) you have in this time - enough to compensate giving up bureaucracy? Free Religion - research boost is nice, but there are two much better choices - Organized Religion to build city improvements quickier and Theocracy (if you already have Theology) to build units with extra XP.

Leszek

[Quillan]

The free tech is enough. One game I played, I found myself alone on an island (after I'd taken out the single other occupant, that is). Somewhere towards the middle of the tech tree I figured I needed Astronomy, as I was running out of happiness and needed to be able to trade for luxuries with the other peoples of the world. This was on huge/marathon, and I was lacking Paper and Education, so it was going to take me 52 turns to research Astronomy. I did it, but fell so far behind in tech that I didn't catch up for a long time. I realized afterwards (DOH!) that I could have researched Paper, researched Education and built universities in a bunch of cities, researched Liberalism and taken Astronomy as the free tech, all in less than the 52 turns it took me to research Astronomy. At the point where you get Liberalism, Astronomy is basically the most expensive tech there is, so getting that for free is a big deal. If you're going after a conquest or domination victory on a map that has multiple land masses, I'd go so far as to say it's as big a deal as running the Civil Service slingshot and succeeding.

[Cort Haus]

Narrow beelines for Astronomy are usually bad news, as it takes forever and you can't bring in needed economic improvements from the other techs that are being foregone, as Quillan's example shows.

The same can apply for Optics beelines on an isolated start for caravels. It's better to get the economic techs from the top of the tree and apply these to the empire first before ploughing through the bottom. The direct route to sea techs is often not the fastest.

[DrSpike]

I think you would be better not playing duels where nothing happens till astronomy.

[Elledge]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli
It's the Deep Slingshot thread: http://apolyton.net/forums//showthre...hreadid=154325

That's not Astronomy with Liberalism, that's Nationalism (at best) with Liberalism. To get to Astronomy usually you'll still need Compass, Calendar, Metal Casting, Machinery, and Optics, at least. (And Machinery and Optics tend to take a few turns.)

[Cort Haus]

I started a game on an island map using Great Engineer specialists to burn along the bottom row towards Optics. Of course, GE farming is hard work, especially with the nerfed chop and the need to preserve forest for health. No fresh water health bonus and few available health resources made the Hanging Gardens very useful.

So far I lightbulbed Metal Working and Machinery, and am researching Optics by hand, but I hadn't got the Hagia Sofia yet for the last available GE points. Engineering is an expensive tech itself, and I still need Construction

Although the Phi trait might be better than Ind for GE production, I didn't fancy my chances of getting the Pyramids without Ind or Stone. Ind also gets the forges up very quickly. OTOH, going for GPersons without Phi trait or Phi tech is slow going. GE focus may be best used as an opportunistic start for Phi Civs who start with stone.

Theoretically, with Optics and Calendar researched, a Gt Scientist should be able to lighbulb part of Astro if Philosophy is not available. Mind you, popping Philosophy isn't to be sniffed at if looking to generate GPersons for tech blazing.

[Jorun-kun]

If memory serves, you can burn great scientists to expediate Astronomy - probably need more than one though. Maybe if you time research and GS pops right, you could cut some corners? Never tried this though.

J.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Jorun-kun
If memory serves, you can burn great scientists to expediate Astronomy - probably need more than one though. Maybe if you time research and GS pops right, you could cut some corners? Never tried this though.

J.

As I said above, you'll need Philosophy out of the way before a GS can pop (part of) Astro. You can actually pop (part of) Astro with a GA, but there's a lot of other stuff to research or avoid the pre-reqs for, so its not a beeline :

Drama
Music
Literature
Polytheism
Monarchy
Alphabet
Monotheism
Mysticism
Divine Right
Meditation
Writing
Printing Press
Philosophy
Theology
Priesthood
Nationalism
Liberalism
Horseback Riding
Pottery
Education
Astronomy

Avoiding Masonry removes Monotheism, Theology and Divine Right.