Deep Slingshot

[darrelljs]

This was inspired by Blake's slingshot from RB’s third adventure. Playing a Philosophical leader, he builds Stonehenge and (by avoiding Masonry) uses the Great Prophet to discover Code of Laws, then uses The Oracle to discover Philosophy. It motivated me to look at the tech tree and the light bulb preferences to see what might be possible.

My test setup was the earth18civs scenario, playing as Elizabeth. You have to be Philosophical, and Financial also helps. I played it as a OCC and only on Noble, but could only get it to work one time. The problem is that The Oracle gets built pretty early with so many civilizations and so much Marble. Even if you can get to The Oracle first, you have to pop one Great Prophet and one Great Scientist.

Anyway, I move northwest two tiles and settle. My research path was Hunting -> Mysticism -> Animal Husbandry -> Writing -> The Wheel -> Meditation -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Mathematics -> Code of Laws. My build order was Workboat -> Worker -> Stonehenge -> Library -> Barracks -> The Oracle.

Okay, so after researching Code of Laws, do this:



The Great Prophet selects Civil Service because you don’t have Masonry, and therefore don’t have access to Monotheism or Theology. The Great Prophet light bulb preference order is Meditation -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Monotheism -> Theology -> Divine Right -> Mysticism -> Code of Laws -> Civil Service -> etc. You need about five more turns of research to discover Civil Service, then do this:



The Great Scientist preference order is Writing -> -> Mathematics -> Scientific Method -> Physics -> Education -> Printing Press -> Fiber Optics -> Computers -> The Wheel -> Philosophy -> etc. Now that you know both Civil Service and Philosophy, you can finish with this:



So, 900 B.C. I tried a lot of approaches (including different starting locations) and this was my optimal time. In terms of working tiles, I focused on food at the start, then hammers until I built the Library. After that it was a focus on beakers (I was getting 33 per turn) to the point of slight starvation. I have my exact moves written down but I’m hoping someone gets interested enough to try and beat this time, and I don’t want to bias their approach any further. Based on the fall dates I recorded on all my trials, you need to get it by 1040 B.C. to have a better than 50% chance of success. One suggestion if you do try this is road up to the fur. The third border pop gets you an extra happy.

Nationalism was pretty useless since I didn’t feel like drafting Warriors, but it was a pretty good exercise in optimizing the initial start. If you can wait for another Great Scientist you can use him on Paper and then take Education with The Oracle. It is less free beakers, but more useful in the long run. I was no where near a reasonable build date on The Oracle to achieve this.

If you don’t have to worry about barbarians, I think the best start with a Philosophical leader is a classic Civil Service slingshot, but prioritize Writing so you get two Great Scientists (the first for an Academy, and the second for Philosophy). Follow with a revolt to Bureaucracy and Pascifism and you are in a commanding position. Pretty straightforward on Monarch with a decent start, but I bet on Emperor or above you need Marble.

Darrell

[Blake]

Hey cool, did you research mathematics while generating the scientist?


Now here's a fun mega-slingshot I've been thinking about.

"Liberalism by 1AD".

I can't remember who came up with this one. Basically the idea is to use Caste System to generate a silly number of Great Scientists and via very restrictive research you lightbulb right up to Liberalism.

Here are the GS tech priorities:
Bold are the ones we ideally lightbulb.
Green are ones on the path that we research.
Red are the BAD ones, they will distract the GS's from the one true path, you must avoid researching the pre-req's to the red techs.
Blue are the distractions that don't lead to Liberalism but must be researched (they don't lead to yet more distractions).

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
The Wheel
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
Biology
Electricity
Flight
Genetics
Compass
Satellites
Sailing
Alphabet
Calendar
Medicine
Ecology
Iron Working
Metal Casting
Engineering
Steam Power
Liberalism

Now the annoying thing is that in order to keep Liberalism up on his priority list you need to avoid researching Fishing, Bronze Working and also research Alphabet.

It is however possible to lightbulb up to Education and then research Liberalism by 1AD (it's not an expensive tech compared with education), so it is in fact still possible if you wish to fish and/or whip.

Another annoying thing is the only expensive tech is Nationhood (or the less expensive Gunpowder), however the combination of Nationhood and Education lets you research Representation. Of course if you don't mind being non-purist and keeping Liberalism "in the bank" some techs which would be fairly atainable and useful would be:
Military Tradition, Astronomy and Chemistry.

I'm not sure how practical this is other than bragging rights (Liberalism by 1AD! w00t!). You could go Nationhood and draft Muskets or Maces (either unit is quite trivial to research to), drafting is EXCEPTIONAL value and with free religion and 3+ religions founded you could easily afford the happy hit.

If anyone wants to try Liberalism by 1AD, it's entirely possible to do on this map (small archi noble difficulty arabs). I completed Liberalism at about 50BC (you need to fish so you have to research Liberalism manually).

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Oh... Now THAT'S what I'm talking about!

Both ideas and examples are simply fantastic! Have to try them in my next couple of games.

This is the stuff that is truly golden!

[darrelljs]

Originally posted by Blake
Hey cool, did you research mathematics while generating the scientist?

Yup...you can do it before or after Code of Laws. For Saladin it might make sense to do it after, since you can nab Civil Service early and run Beauracracy without losing a turn to anarchy. Saladin starts with The Wheel and Mysticism...he might be better at this than Elizabeth!

Originally posted by Blake
Now here's a fun mega-slingshot I've been thinking about.

"Liberalism by 1AD".

Good lord...that is 115 turns I believe. It makes me want to try the Education slingshot. From there you could just research Liberalism.

(time passes)

I could not get the Education slingshot to work with your save. I have not given up on it. I think with 115 turns an early Settler should pay for itself and then some, but perhaps trying to squeeze it out is what is defeating me. I'll keep at it

Darrell

P.S. This is beginning to remind me of the method to estimate a chess player's skill by solving problems taken from master games.

[Qwertqwert]

I remember seeing that you could get most of the techs in the last 2 rows without agriculture, including both the ones on the last row.

[Blake]

Originally posted by darrelljs
I could not get the Education slingshot to work with your save. I have not given up on it. I think with 115 turns an early Settler should pay for itself and then some, but perhaps trying to squeeze it out is what is defeating me. I'll keep at it
...

A 2nd city is definitely needed. In that save you can easily run 4 scientists in a well-placed 2nd city. You should get the 2nd city ASAP, like right after building workboats.

[Elledge]

This coincides with some discussion we've been having on the MP ladder forums about liberalism beelines. It's not difficult for a good player to get liberalism in the BCs without anything really fancy, in my experience (my strategy is here and here; I usually get access to it by about 100 BC, but I generally research down to astronomy so I can take that for my free tech around 400 or 500 AD.)

However, my strategy relies on just having very strong tech; by the time I get to liberalism I am usually making about 160 beakers/turn in my capital, and I have a few smaller cities which are strong. One of our players came up with a really really cool GP beeline that he's able to get liberalism well into the BCs with and still have a very strong game, getting cavalry well before the 100 turn mark, which certainly beats my normal sort of tech by at least 10 or 20 turns. That really woke me up to the possibility of GPs as a path to superfast weirdo tech lines like this.

I just thought I'd point you guys over there and perhaps combining info we can hit 1000 BC in ideal circumstances That would be pretty entertaining.

[Arrian]

Kinda reminds me of the ulta-early CivII SS launch dates.

Interesting stuff.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

The GP-driven strat is a modification of one I've seen before (use of GP to get early Civil Service).

Note that he's doing that on "quick" and mentions that the GP will grant him Civil Service immediately. On a standard map, normal speed, it doesn't quite get you there. You will need at least a few more turns of research. I dunno how that impacts the rest of it.

The rest is interesting, though. Using a GA to get Education and all that...

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Thinking about it some more... if I get a GA from Music, the lightbulb tech it offers is Drama. If I then research Drama, the lightbulb tech offered is Divine Right.

-Arrian

[Blake]

That's why you avoid researching Masonry.

[Elledge]

That's right. Masonry is the must-avoid tech if you want to use a GA or GP for anything useful later. Sucks when you get it from a hut!

You're right, those in the thread I linked are all on quick speed. I think the in-game dates should still be calibrated right on, but I'm not sure. I guess saying "in X many turns from start" isn't a good measure though.

On quick speed, a GP (barely) gets you CS immediately. A GA or GS invested in education gets you about 1080 of 1400 beakers; a GS in philosophy gets it immediately, and a GS in liberalism -almost- finishes it.

[MasterDave]

On Monarch or Emperor with five or more AI's,or most of the time on Multiplayer, you cannot wait until 900 BC to get the Oracle. The AI will usually build it between 1400-1200 BC on those levels. When I do a CS or COL slingshot my goal is to have the Oracle finished around 1600-1500 BC and even then I sometimes do not finish it first.

[Elledge]

In MP on quick speed the fastest is usually some India around 2000BC, so it's really difficult to get it unless you are very focused on it. CS slingshot is popular.

[joncnunn]

Another deep slingshot that I've run into involves (as a Phiosphical leader and with nearby stone) building Stonehidge to start the GP points, then building the Pyraimds so the first GP can be a Great Enginner. If this occurs, pick Metal Casting (it's prereqs are cheap) with the Great Enginner and with the Oracle you can choose the tech that allows Wind Mills & Water Mills.