religion characteristics

[aracuan_76]

Hello,

i would like to say-ask something.
i have played the game very much,try all religions,but so far i havent seen any major or even minor differences between them.my opinion is that every religion,that a civilization chooses to have,or use,should grant the civilization some certain characteristics.for example islam religion,should have an attack bonus-since there is the only religion which(i m not certain for that however)that can be used to declare the so called"holy war"even nowdays.of course and the crusades was something similar,but this isnt happening now.another characteristic should be the increased science or culture,etc.
cooments most welcome.

[proviisori]

It's good that the religions are pretty much the same.
This way no-one gets upset.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Flamer(fin)
It's good that the religions are pretty much the same.
This way no-one gets upset.

Amen (so to speak) to that.

There's a thread around about how the game is being censored for China (no Forbidden City, etc) and a lot of talk about how Hitler isn't included in the expansion as well. Those are contentious issues, but there's nothing that people like to fight about more than religion. You're bound to offend someone if you give each religion their own advantages.

I might add that even in the 9 lines of the original post, there was enough material to start an OT argument that would last for months.

[Prussia]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man


Amen (so to speak) to that.

There's a thread around about how the game is being censored for China (no Forbidden City, etc) and a lot of talk about how Hitler isn't included in the expansion as well... ...You're bound to offend someone if you give each religion their own advantages.

Or their own dissadvantages...

[Nugog]

There is even debate as to whether all the "religions" in the game actually count as religions, and as to if they should be in the game or not!


Sheesh..........

[steeplerot]

I do not see why not, Europa Univerallis II has religion advantages and disadvantages and noone is raising a stink.
Catholicism: +2 diplomats/year +1 missionary every 2 years. Bonus in Stability and Production Efficiency.

Counter-Reformed Catholicism: +2 diplomats/year +1 missionary/year Bonus in Stability, lowers Tax Value. Ability to convert countries by force into Catholicism.
Protestantism: +1 diplomat/year +1 colonist/year Lower Stability. Bonus in Production Efficiency and Tax Value.

Reformist: +1 diplomat/year +2 colonist/year +1 level of Morale for army and navy. Bonus to profits of merchants. Lower Stability and Tax Value.

Orthodox: +1 colonist every 2 years. Bonus in Stability. Not affected diplomatically by change in religion.

Shia Moslem: +1 level of Morale for army and navy. Bonus in Stability. Lower Tax Value.

Suni Moslem: Bonus in Stability.

Confucianism: Bonus in Stability. Lower Tax Value. Lower Trade Efficiency.

Hinduism: Bonus for morale in army and navy. Lower Stability.

Buddhism: +1 Missionary every 2 years. Lower Tax Value. Bonus in Stability.


You get the point.

[Fosse]

Setting aside the argument about political correctness (about which I do not care), from a game balance perspective it makes a lot of sense to have all religions be equal, save for the enabling technology.

Because of the role that religion plays in diplomacy, culture, happiness and civics each religion will have various pros and cons as your civ's state religion at any given point in any game. These factors will include other civs' state religions and the geopolitical situation in the game, how many of your cities, and which particular cities, have which religion in them, and which civics you want to run.

To add additional attributes to the religions muddies the waters and robs players of a certain flexibility in making their religious choices, because certain religions would invariably prove the right choice for particular goals. Keeping all of the religions identical and having religion impact other elements of the game is what keeps it from being simply another Civics choice, which is what it would wind up amounting to otherwise. Also, balance can go out the window if religions are unique because the particular religion you want (say, the one that comes with a combat bonus) might not have spread to your cities in the current game. That's a much different situation than it is now with generic religions, as it could lead to very unstable situations in a game, for instance if one continent manages to found all 7 religions and another has zero.

Having never played EU 2, I can only imagine that religions were implemented in a way that's considerably different than Civ IV, and that said implementation makes a lot of sense and is well balanced in that game.

[aracuan_76]

steepler wrote:

I do not see why not, Europa Univerallis II has religion advantages and disadvantages and noone is raising a stink.
Catholicism: +2 diplomats/year +1 missionary every 2 years. Bonus in Stability and Production Efficiency.

Counter-Reformed Catholicism: +2 diplomats/year +1 missionary/year Bonus in Stability, lowers Tax Value. Ability to convert countries by force into Catholicism.
Protestantism: +1 diplomat/year +1 colonist/year Lower Stability. Bonus in Production Efficiency and Tax Value.

Reformist: +1 diplomat/year +2 colonist/year +1 level of Morale for army and navy. Bonus to profits of merchants. Lower Stability and Tax Value.

Orthodox: +1 colonist every 2 years. Bonus in Stability. Not affected diplomatically by change in religion.

Shia Moslem: +1 level of Morale for army and navy. Bonus in Stability. Lower Tax Value.

Suni Moslem: Bonus in Stability.

Confucianism: Bonus in Stability. Lower Tax Value. Lower Trade Efficiency.

Hinduism: Bonus for morale in army and navy. Lower Stability.

Buddhism: +1 Missionary every 2 years. Lower Tax Value. Bonus in Stability.


You get the point.



thank you my friend.
i m glad that at least one got the point.yes,why not having thier own characteristics?
i dont see the reason for not.this is a reality,a fact,its not our opinion.i have of course no reason and no intension to offense no one.
everyone i feel we are happy people.and everyone i want to beleive have good will to co operate in every step,despite our religion diferences.for example,i m an orthodox,but i can talk and live in peace and armony with everyone that does respect and dont bothers me.

i think that this is something that relies on good will in soul,not in religion.

[proviisori]

Originally posted by aracuan_76


i think that this is something that relies on good will in soul,not in religion.

But as an atheist, I don't believe in soul.
I'm not against different bonuses but I understand why they did not make the religions different. The safe solution would be name the religions with fictional names and give the bonuses.

[aracuan_76]

curious

you dont believe in God,or,in a power greater than you flamer?

[proviisori]

Well... I would say that i.e. a hurricane is a greater power tham me. but seriously, no.. I don't believe in supernatural beings. My outlook on life is scientific one.

IMO gods and such don't just make any sense.

[johnmcd]

Re: curious

Originally posted by aracuan_76
you dont believe in God,or,in a power greater than you flamer?

Good grief.

[aracuan_76]

mmm

well,

i m 30 years old.and i have seen many things in my life which i cant give them or say that occured by a game of luck.i think that they happened for a reason.and that reason might be directed from the skies.
all these people,that wrote the holy books,saint peter,saint john,etc.cant lie about these miracles that took place.if you seen the "jesus from nazareth"i m certain that put you in very serious thoughts.
although i m bored and i dont go in church,i believe in the immortality of the soul,and in a supernatural power that relies on religion.
of course,i respect everyone s choices and never press or try to convince him for my ideas.

[drsparnum]

I personally couldn't care less about the political correctness of the issue, and wish the religons had different but relatively balanced effects, like civics. If they were different but well balanced I think it would increase the strategy of the game.

You might make a b-line for Buddhism extra hard if you wanted it's "civic-like" effect. Alternatively, you may not like Buddhism or Polytheism's civic like effect so you may not bother getting a religion until Judiasm, even though your civ starts with mysticism, because you want its civic-like effect. Yes, it's true that you don't always control what religion creeps into your cities, unless you found it, but I think that would just increase the variablility of the game. Having some elements out of the players control forces them to adapt and makes each game different. When you don't have copper nearby, you adapt. When you have stone nearby you adapt and say "maybe I'll build those pyramids." Something like that. When you want to be peaceful, but the peaceful religion would make a lot of your neighbors mad at you (because they're something else) and drive you to war then you've got a strategic gamble to make.

However.....I understand Firaxis' business decision of making all religions equal and I'm just glad they're in there at all now (you could argue they're the most important "techs" in human history, so their absence was notable). I'm probably indifferent to the political correctness because I've become faithless, although even when I was faithful I think I could have dealt with some variability in the religions if there was some historical basis for it. (although I do still have strong faith in hitting the space bar after a period aracuan, so much faith I do it twice in fact j/k ) I'm American but it's not like I get mad that the game didn't decide to make American's creative or something.

What surprises me most of all is that no one made a mod that makes the religions different that I know about. In the Total Realism mod they made Judiasm a little different but I'm surprised there isn't a mod that gives each religion a small and decently balanced tweak.



As for the Hitler thing, I can see it from both sides, and I would not include him as a possible German leader if I was Firaxis. I think it is still too recent, since there are people alive that have living memories of WW2. I do think Rommel should be included as one of the Great Generals you can get in the expansion, and that shouldn't be nearly as offensive to people who'd be offended about the inclusion of Hitler.

[AshenPlanet]

.

I do not see why not, Europa Univerallis II has religion advantages and disadvantages and noone is
raising a stink.

Maybe not many people play europa...

Seriously, I could argue for hours about 9 out of those 10 religious modifiers and how they are a ridiculous representation of what those religions' modifiers should actually be...
I really think the best options if you wanted different modifiers would have been to let each civ have their own religion, or make up new religions.

Having existing religions give different modifiers is a bad bad idea...

I'm an avowed athiest as well, but I'd be offended like others would be, if I percieved an insulting objectification of the religion of my ancestors...

.