Money and diplomacy issues

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

What do you sell?

I'm busy grinding away through my first Marathon/Huge game. Foolishly, I picked a fight with an AI on the other side of the world. I've virtually wiped them out, but I'm paying the price, literally - maintenance costs due to city distance are through the roof. I've hit up all my friends (Kublai, Monty, Huanya) for cash already and bullied my enemies.

I had dropped my science rate down to 50% when I hit upon a solution: Sell old sciences and non-strategic resources. The AIs - the ones who dislike me as well as the ones who like me - are happy to pay up to 10 coins/turn for access to, say, Pigs or Clams. And I've sold techs as well, generally to the more backward AIs. And now, my science rate is back up to 70-80%.

So, after I was done patting myself on the back (this is my fourth game), I wondered if I was inadvertently shooting myself in the foot.

On the one hand, I have a lot of resources - I've done some conquering and staked out a good swath of land. So selling extra resources (where the AI has nothing good to trade) seems to make sense. And I wouldn't sell Horses or Iron, for obvious reasons.

And given what I've heard about the AIs and tech trading - why not sell my older, cheaper techs and get what I can, rather than waiting for the AIs to trade amongst themselves and getting no cash?

On the other hand - am I frittering away my tech lead for little benefit? I've sold 900 beaker techs for as little as 180 coins - that seems awfully cheap, and a good deal for the AI. But at least I'm getting something, and all this swapping seems to keep me in most AIs good books.

Any thoughts on this approach?

Also - how do you decide which cities to raze and which to keep? If it's a smallish city - say size 5 or less - I usually raze it. But there's no way to tell what's in a larger city before you have to make the keep/burn decision. If I knew there was a Courthouse and a couple other improvements, I'd generally want to keep it. But there's no way to tell. I hate the idea of razing something useful so I tend to keep more cities than I can afford (see above).

[greenday_234]

Glad you asked this question because its one of the few that I actually know the answer to.

Most games that I play are on World Maps as the Americans nowadays and I love conquering foreign nations and building them back up as my own, thus I often end up with large, sometimes larger, empires in Europe, Africa, Japan etc. etc. The best formula for far reaching empires such as this is a combo of State Property Civic and Courthouses, courthouses, courthouses! You'll end up paying some maintence in the beginning but if you fix the infustructure that the AI put in place with some fresh cottages more often than not the pay off is quite handsome.
Another more indirect way to finance a vast empire is Permanent alliances. Because if you sign one with another fairly major power it eases both of your research costs, since you split it thus your bringing in more cold hard cash. Also your ally is willing to give you anything and everything, so if it seems like hes slacking in the research department hes more than likely bringing in a lot of gpt so nab some of that to finance your war effort. Currently I am bringing in 300 gpt from my ally to finance my war effort. not to mention he most likely has food product you don't, i.e. pigs, cow etc. so grab some of that too ease sickness in your new cities as well as some luxuries to ease weariness. Given these factors Permanent alliances are crucial.
As to the question of what cities to keep, given my playstyle I'm not too particular. Usually I raze cities for 1 of 2 reasons. A. its abundantly clear that the city will be lost due to a neighbors culture or B. its in a completely useless area i.e. its a single city away from any other city I own, its smack in the middle of tunder or desert. Other than those factors I tend to keep them.

Note: this has worked well for me on Prince difficulty, I'm not sure of higher difficulties but I imagine the structure is just about the same.

[Vynd]

Taking over a lot of territory way far away from your own empire is going to give you cashflow problems. I don't think there's any way to avoid this. But you've already admitted that picking a fight with someone on the other side of the planet wasn't the best move.

Given the situation you're in, the strategies you've followed to raise cash make sense. But you're right that they benefit the AIs more than they do you, especially over the long term. Larger cities (via resources) and especially the cheap technologies for your opponents means a more difficult victory for you. So you'd really be better off finding ways to raise cash without selling so many resources and technology.

A few ways you could do this are:

• Courthouses: A must for any large empire.
• Income city improvements: Not as helpful overall but if you have an economic powerhouse or two they can make a big difference.
• Sell marginal cities to the AI: Or even give them away if they're nothing but a drag on your economy.
• Religion: If you control any shrines then spread the faith around.
• Refocusing your cities: Devote as many as possibile to maximizing cash.
• Wonders: Some will address income directly, such as the Spiral Minaret, the Forbidden Palace, or Versailles. Alternatively, set yourself to slowly building wonders you don't even want just so you'll get a cash refund when someone else completes them.
• Civics: Tweak these for improved income. State Property is superb for large empires.

The beauty of several of these options (for example, Wonders, spreading religion, courthouses) is that they in one manner or another funnel production towards improving your economy. With a large empire you presumably have lots of production.

[MasterDave]

I see nothing wrong in using the AI as a source of cash, and will almost always trade extra resources for even one gold per turn except for the biggies (horses, iron, etc) if I think they are not going to get used against me. I will also sell off non-critical techs to backwards civs who are not a threat to me (non-critical techs would be music, drama, paper; stuff that has no direct military application). Selling resources and selling techs also has very favorable impact on relations, as the AI really likes it when it gets the fat end of a deal.

If you want to have a large, world spanning empire, you will find that you do the best financially with organized. State property is also extremely useful in reducing maintenance costs if you are far flung, but if you are organized you may not even need to take this step and can stick with free market for all of the extra trade routes...

[joncnunn]

Re: Money and diplomacy issues

Actually, the AI will happily pay something like 30 GPT for a health or luxary if it actually had that much free cash flow.

The main thing about gold for resource deals is that you need to peroidcally make sure the AI free revenue hasn't increased. If it has, you need to cancel and resign for more gpt.
Also, I like to still have 2+ resources of the same type remaining before selling for GPT so incase a luxary or health comes free...

As for old techs; I'd want at least half the face (non difficulty level) value before selling, but that's just me.

Actually, if a city has ever been in line of sight; if your put the cities on detail mode you should see the population before you attack. I usually save raizing for (I don't feel like defending it / very horrid location)

Court Houses & the FP are your friend when your expandly rapidlly by any means.

Holy City sites with Shrines and their religion throughout your empire (and beyond) are even better.

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
What do you sell?

I'm busy grinding away through my first Marathon/Huge game. Foolishly, I picked a fight with an AI on the other side of the world. I've virtually wiped them out, but I'm paying the price, literally - maintenance costs due to city distance are through the roof. I've hit up all my friends (Kublai, Monty, Huanya) for cash already and bullied my enemies.

I had dropped my science rate down to 50% when I hit upon a solution: Sell old sciences and non-strategic resources. The AIs - the ones who dislike me as well as the ones who like me - are happy to pay up to 10 coins/turn for access to, say, Pigs or Clams. And I've sold techs as well, generally to the more backward AIs. And now, my science rate is back up to 70-80%.

So, after I was done patting myself on the back (this is my fourth game), I wondered if I was inadvertently shooting myself in the foot.

On the one hand, I have a lot of resources - I've done some conquering and staked out a good swath of land. So selling extra resources (where the AI has nothing good to trade) seems to make sense. And I wouldn't sell Horses or Iron, for obvious reasons.

And given what I've heard about the AIs and tech trading - why not sell my older, cheaper techs and get what I can, rather than waiting for the AIs to trade amongst themselves and getting no cash?

On the other hand - am I frittering away my tech lead for little benefit? I've sold 900 beaker techs for as little as 180 coins - that seems awfully cheap, and a good deal for the AI. But at least I'm getting something, and all this swapping seems to keep me in most AIs good books.

Any thoughts on this approach?

Also - how do you decide which cities to raze and which to keep? If it's a smallish city - say size 5 or less - I usually raze it. But there's no way to tell what's in a larger city before you have to make the keep/burn decision. If I knew there was a Courthouse and a couple other improvements, I'd generally want to keep it. But there's no way to tell. I hate the idea of razing something useful so I tend to keep more cities than I can afford (see above).

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Thanks for the good advice. I haven't researched Communism yet, but I had sort of considered switching to State Prop after getting there. I'll definitely do that now.

I have been working on Courthouses in my captured towns, but they're slow to build and expensive to rush (I toyed with the idea of going back to Slavery, but didn't...). Since my initial post, I managed to get Versailles built in the middle of my new colony, and things are a lot more manageable as a result. I'm still swapping cash for resources, but have stopped selling science (AIs are all poor now). As it turns out, things are probably harder for me due to my giving the #2 nation in the power rankings a lot of techs on the cheap. So I won't be doing that much, anymore.

I'll have to look into permanent alliances - I've never tried that approach (I'd prefer to kill all the AIs, or at least have the option open). Seems like a great way to keep the cash coming!

A couple of follow up points:

Do you take a reputation hit with an AI if you cancel a resource-for-cash swap and renegotiate it for more money?

I can see a city's size just fine... and yes, a size 7 or 8 city is usually a keeper. But it would really help if there was a way to tell where the wonders were, and what else is in the city. Occasionally you can spot the Wonder on the map, but not much else. And I have grabbed a size 5 city with an Academy, once - I wouldn't want to raze that. Is there any way to tell - with a Spy, perhaps?

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Do you take a reputation hit with an AI if you cancel a resource-for-cash swap and renegotiate it for more money?

Nope.

I can see a city's size just fine... and yes, a size 7 or 8 city is usually a keeper. But it would really help if there was a way to tell where the wonders were, and what else is in the city. Occasionally you can spot the Wonder on the map, but not much else. And I have grabbed a size 5 city with an Academy, once - I wouldn't want to raze that. Is there any way to tell - with a Spy, perhaps?

Well, yeah, if you get a Spy into the city, you can see what's in it; usually not worth it, though. Also, there's a screen in the display window where you can see the top cities of the world, and also see where all the Wonders of the World are, so you can avoid accidently razing the Statue of Liberty.

Back to the origional question, I almost always trade everything. The only time I wait is if I want to be in the lead to get to a race to something key (liberalism, some key wonder, ect) I don't trade the supporting techs until I think I'm far enough ahead to feel safe doing so.

Still, if the AI can give me something worthwhile, I'll almost always sell them a tech. With smart tech trading, you can come from behind and catch up; if you're ahead don't bother to trade techs, the AI's can catch up with you by trading with each other.

It's especally true if you just crashed your economy by a dramatic expansion. If you do nothing, you will get passed quickly by the AI's; however, you can sometimes trade techs around and stay competitive for quite a while. Trade techs, scramble to build economic or science buildings and courthouses and build up your cities, and do whatever you have to to stop from falling too far behind. You still probably will, temporarlly, but in (very) the long run the fact you probably have the biggest empire in the world now can put you into the lead. You just have to hang on with your fingernails and try not to fall to far behind until then.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Yosho


Well, yeah, if you get a Spy into the city, you can see what's in it; usually not worth it, though. Also, there's a screen in the display window where you can see the top cities of the world, and also see where all the Wonders of the World are, so you can avoid accidently razing the Statue of Liberty.

The display window with the top 5 cities and wonders doesn't say which city the wonder is in - just which civilization has it. Or am I missing something?

The only way I can get some hint is by looking closely at the city - e.g. you can see the Colossus standing in the water, and the Pyramids are clearly visible outside my #2 city.

[Indon]

There's a window to the side of the cities that lists all of the wonders. Ignore the actual "top 5 cities" part of the screen and just look at the wonder readout. If you click on one of the wonders (there's even a scrollbar, iirc, for if there are many wonders about) you can see where it was built as well as what it does.

[Arrian]

I sell resources the AI all the time. If I feel like squeezing maximum advantage from them, I will try to sell them stuff they already have lots of instead of stuff they're short on (e.g. selling them health resources when what they really need is some luxuries).

I will, on occasion, sell strategic resources (metals, horses, ivory) to AIs. Typically I will make those trades with weak AIs that I feel aren't a threat, or with AIs that are in danger of being beat up by AIs I *do* see as a threat.

I will trade resources for resources until I've got a few more of each (health/happy) than I need right at that moment, and then sell the rest for gold per turn. I renegotiate every so often to squeeze out the extra couple of gpt.

I typically sell only certain techs. Prime examples are:

Early techs, with which I acquire other early techs. The only one I typically won't sell is alphabet. No need to help the AI with that one!

Music
Drama (typically acquired via trade, I almost never research it)

Techs that are clearly "out there" already. These are techs that, were I the only civ to have them I wouldn't trade. But once one or more AIs get 'em, I will sell them if I see an opportunity (often for a world map & some gold).

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Some other thoughts:

While expansion will often cost you money in the near-term, it's usually a net benifit if you consolidate your new holdings properly.

[random example w/made-up numbers]
50% science on a total commerce output of 1000 = 500 beakers/turn.

70% science on a total commerce output of 600 = 420 beakers/turn.[/random example]

So I wouldn't worry *too* much about your science rate (it's good to work at improving it, sure).

Regarding rushing courthouses... if you are playing a Spiritual civ, I would switch back to slavery and poprush them (and granaries) and then switch back out. If not... well, chopping may be the best way to get them up fast if you're cash-poor.

Another way to work on the cashflow problem is to boost your shrine income. Spread your religion to all those newly conquered cities and (assuming you have the shrine built) you will get a nice boost to your income. Make sure your shrine city has a market, grocer, bank and (when the time comes) Wall Street.

If you captured a shrine city and can still build monasteries (or if you're running Org. Rel so you can build missionaries w/o monasteries), you can send your newly conquered religion back to your home territories and get more income that way.

-Arrian

[Jaybe]

Back to the "what buildings exist in a foreign city" issue (before spies):
Once you have a line of sight (relatively current) to the city, zoom in to it as far as you can and identify each of the buildings. With practice it should be no problem. If zooming in max is too much for you, do a CTRL-B to clear the troops out of the way.

If you are willing to take the time to do it, there is no excuse for not knowing what is in a city before you take it. Anything that is missing afterwards is either a culture-producing building or due to the fight for the city, of course.

If there is a strange building and you suspect a wonder, go to the F9/Cities & Wonders screen and see what they look like. You can grab the view of it (with the mouse) to manipulate the angle