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  • Spiritual trait

    Hi there,

    This topics aim is to be an occasion to collect your thoughts about this so-called "weak" spiritual trait.
    For persons that don't have yet an obsession of this game, it gives the ability to change civics without anarchy (within the universal limit of one revolution per five turns period) as well as double production for small cult buildings.

    It is often misliked: some say, small temples are not so important buildings, compared to granaries for example. And revolutions do happen in the game, but not so frequently. All other traits give permanent bonuses instead.

    My thesis is, this last argument is wrong and reveals a non-understanding of the power of the trait.

    The ideal gameplay for a Spiritual Civ radically differs from that of a non-spiritual one. To compensate for the benefits of other traits, one must morph his Civilization characteristics as often as wisheable, to fit the current needs of the game. Here are some examples:

    - About the religious civic: are you producing buildings? Switch to Organized religion. Units? Theocracy's here for you. Great persons? That's the use of Pacifism. Remember, you may switch every 5 turns!!

    - Preparing for an uncertain war? A non-spiritual civ would avoid military civics until the war becomes a certainty. You may choose Feudalism // Theocracy // Police State and revert if peace finally prevails, without penalty.

    - When 1+ lost turns in anarchy mean a lot (end game...), it is useful to be able to switch to Police State to remove war weariness... This allows for a large choice of strategic options: do you need a colonial war to get a resource, without hurting your economy? Go on...

    - In more peaceful games, here is a trick that can give you a huge advantage if you manage to get Democracy as your free Liberalism tech. (I make it on Monarch quite every time...). First of all, switch to Emancipation. None of the other labor civics are really useful at this era, and an early Emancipation means early towns all around the empire (the unhappy penalty for your concurrents doesn't hurt too). Keep Representation // Bureaucracy // Organized religion and start building Statue of Liberty in your capital city. Have a golden age triggered (Taj Mahal or 2 GP): then switch to Universal Suffrage for the golden age duration. With 2 hammers per town, your capital should be a hammer factory. I complete the Statue within 10 turns with this. At the end of the golden age, revert to Representation. Having this civic with the Statue (among the very best wonders of the game) gives a very very serious commerce & tech lead!!. There is no urgence to go Universal Suffrage // Free Speech, wait for your cottages to be mature and maybe for the Kremlin to be built.


    I hope to have convinced some of you about the usefulness of the Spiritual trait! Please let me know if you see other tricks involving it.

    And what leader do you like best (for the second trait)? I tend to prefer Saladin.


    Yuufo

  • #2
    Saladin is good to have with Spiritual, as is Gandhi; these two are the best Spiritual leaders for building the Pyramids, which really shines with the Spiritual trait. (Gandhi builds it directly with his 50% bonus, Saladin builds it via the Alternate Pyramid Grab.)
    Participating in my threads is mandatory. Those who do not do so will be forced, in their next game, to play a power directly between Catherine and Montezuma.

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    • #3
      can you still make the alternate pyramid grab work after patch 1.61? i never tried it, but building the forge in time after the oracle (7 turns) seems awfully hard to do with forests nerfed.

      well it's still theoretically possible to do in 6 turns with 2 workers, but usually when i did the grab there were barbarians around that slowed down both the prechopping and the actual chopping. or do you usually get 3 workers out?

      will have to try that again. damn, i wanted to try out seemingly lesser civs for a while (spain and persia mostly)


      EDIT: this makes the whole message redundant, but i just remembered slavery, the power of which i only recently was pointed at by blake's threads. i guess that makes it easy

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      • #4
        Spiritual is great because:

        1. You can build multiple temples in a city, max 7. That's a lot of hammers saved.

        2. The new 1.61 patch increases the anarchy period, making spiritual more valuable.

        3. Spiritual civs have a better chance of securing a religion.

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        • #5
          Eh.
          I like spiritual when it's paired up with starting Mysticism.

          But without a good shot at an early religion it's a bit lame.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by One_more_turn
            Spiritual is great because:

            3. Spiritual civs have a better chance of securing a religion.
            I'm not convinced that Spiritual leaders have a better chance of securing a religion. Surely it's having Mysticism as a starting tech that gives you that better chance. Huayna Capac starts with Mysticism but isn't spiritual; Hatshepsut is spiritual, but lacks Mysticism. I know which one I'd rather have if I'm going for an early religion.

            RJM
            Fill me with the old familiar juice

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            • #7
              Eh.
              I like spiritual when it's paired up with starting Mysticism.

              But without a good shot at an early religion it's a bit lame.
              You know that Mysticism as starting tech is no guarantee to have an early religion.
              As Saladin, I try Meditation, and if I get beaten I develop normally, and then go the path Alphabet + Theater. I finish with a great scientist sacrified, giving me Taoïsm.

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              • #8
                I'm not convinced that Spiritual leaders have a better chance of securing a religion. Surely it's having Mysticism as a starting tech that gives you that better chance. Huayna Capac starts with Mysticism but isn't spiritual; Hatshepsut is spiritual, but lacks Mysticism. I know which one I'd rather have if I'm going for an early religion.
                Capac also has Financial trait, so with a good commerce start he's all but assured religion! Not to mention that Hatty doesn't need religion for borders.


                Seriously, starting Mysticism makes it a lot easier to get an early religion - I mean fast enough for a fast temple and a fast prophet. It doesn't always work, but it's worth chancing ~10 turns research on.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Blake

                  Capac also has Financial trait, so with a good commerce start he's all but assured religion!
                  It does not help that much. Since he does not have Fishing, the only things that will give him more than one commerce are commerce-boosting specials on a river not in a forest - and those are basically limited to wine or precious metals.

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                  • #10
                    Should I say - given the right start, he is all but assured religion; as the only fin/mystic if he gets an oasis or something he can KNOW he's all but assured religion.
                    Important distinction, I know.

                    Although mysticism does get popped uncomfortably often, however the chances of it being poped on turn 1 are vanishingly small.

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                    • #11
                      i play capac alot, and my first reasherch is always polynism givin me hinduism, i dont facy my chances in a race for buddism.

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                      • #12
                        I played a couple of games over the weekend with spiritual leaders, I'm really liking it a lot.

                        Just being able to change civics without anarchy is a great bonus.

                        In the early game if you found a religion and change to it, and change to slavery when you get bronze working it'd normally cost you 2 turns of anarchy. With spiritual you just keep on happily moving along and it makes a big difference in the early game. You also save more commerce and hammers later in the game, and you can change at will.
                        Last edited by MikeH; May 30, 2006, 05:49.
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                        • #13
                          One problem with Spiritual is when your economy is flatlined (or even in the red) you can't use anarchy to get a few turns relief. Altough perma-anarchy has been nerfed, well timed anarcy can still be useful, like to buy just enough time to capture that big juicy enemy city and get a huge sack bonus.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Spiritual trait

                            Originally posted by Yuufo
                            Hi there,

                            This topics aim is to be an occasion to collect your thoughts about this so-called "weak" spiritual trait.
                            For persons that don't have yet an obsession of this game, it gives the ability to change civics without anarchy (within the universal limit of one revolution per five turns period) as well as double production for small cult buildings.

                            It is often misliked: some say, small temples are not so important buildings, compared to granaries for example. And revolutions do happen in the game, but not so frequently. All other traits give permanent bonuses instead.

                            Yuufo
                            I hardly felt it was a weak trait. For me it was right up there with the stronger traits of financial, philosophical and organised.

                            But your assessment is absolutely spot on. The spiritual trait allows for a very flexible game from aggressove tp builder.

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                            • #15
                              Spiritual is a weak trait ?

                              In my book it's the strongest followed closely by Aggressive and Financial.

                              Forget temples, Spiritual it's all about changing civics at the drop of a hat without anarchy turns. Consider it a wonderful tool to change gears in midgame without any drawback. War or peace, either way you win with this trait. Add to it the Aggressive combo for Aztec early rule.
                              Last edited by Drakan; June 1, 2006, 10:06.
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