Newbie struggling on Noble level, need help

[NFIH]

I'm having quite a bit of trouble now that I've moved up to this level. I have several problems for which I need some help. I always end up at or in last place (though I've never finished a game as I quit it long before that). My settings are Noble, Huge map, 7 AIs. I play as the Egyptians.

1. Tech trading. I can't seem to get a handle on how best to do this with the AIs. Except for the very early game, they pretty much never want to give me anything where the trade means I'm actually giving them a lesser tech. But if I give them my current best tech, that just increases their power while I've only picked up a lower level tech. What is the strategy to pursue with this?

2. Managing empire growth vs. defenses. I find I can't do both at the same time effectively. What typically happens is that some AI declares war on me out of the blue and I quickly lose a city to some massive enemy stack and it's downhill from there. But if I spend on defenses, I don't grow my economy/empire/tech and fall behind anyway. If I had SOME idea of how or when the AI makes a decision to attack, maybe I'd have a chance. But one moment I'm trading with an AI and the next it breaks the deals and declares war.

3. Wonders. It seems to me that what the AI does is start building the wonder associated with a given tech the moment that tech is researched. This can be one of the only reasons why every time I try to build a wonder I'm always beat out by a few turns and all that time is wasted--which further puts me in the hole. But how can I build those wonders (even with chopping) and still do other things like build units for defense, etc.?

4. I hear people talk about specializing cities. But is this really doable given that cities within an empire can't trade food among themselves (which is something I really don't understand how it could not be included in this game)? It forces each city to be de facto self sufficient. Sure, one city might have slightly more hammers so can build stuff faster but its build list is going to dependent on where it is relative to other enemy cities, etc.

5. How exactly does scoring work? I notice that it seems like every tech discovery gives you 20 points. But what else comprises the score? I feel that if I know what those elements are I'll be able to adjust my play accordingly to at least stay in the running with the AIs.

6. How do you effectively move up in score during a game? There seems to be a linear progression established after the end of the early game where the position of all the players remains relatively fixed because your growth allows you to naturally maintain your lead. I can't figure out how you can move up quickly once this has been "established."

7. How do replays work? I tried downloading one from here somewhere and put it in the replay folder. But when I loaded it, it played like it was a regular save game (e.g. I could continue playing that person's game). I'd like to be able to watch a game by an experienced player to see what the strategy should be.

thanks!

[Senethro]

Ummmmm, use the search function? Check out the strategy forum? You'll find more there than anyone will tell you in this thread.

[Solver]

If you're playing on a Huge map with 7 AIs, that's a non-standard player number. I find that having less players than intended for a map makes the game harder. It leaves more extra space on the map, and the AI is naturally better at expanding to that space.

1. You need, most of all, one or two reliable friends that are tech trading partners. I find it that there are techs - Code of Laws, Metal Casting, Alphabet itself - that the AI doesn't get too often early. Hence, if you research these techs first, you can sell them and gain several new techs. If your top tech is Metal Casting, and you sell it to 3 AIs, getting 3 different techs in return, you just made a very good deal.

2. It can be hard. ne useful thing is to know the AI personalities - Alexander is far more likely to backstab you than Mansa Musa. Isabella, if you have a different religion, will declare on you, that's a given. Also, are you building Walls perhaps? Don't bother. Not too often. And you don't need to defend your inner cities, you need to defend the cities that are your outer cities and hence at more danger of attack.

3. You decide on your priorities. Early Wonders usually require you build them in your capital, as it's common not to have a second very productive city then. But yes, it's a tradeoff. Building a Wonder means you sacrifice something, like a couple of units.

4. Specializing cities is quite doable. I would personally advice, though, not doing it right now, but maybe starting when you're comfortable with Noble. It's a bit more advanced. Generally, city specialization depends on the terrain. If you have a food resource (Wheat, Corn) that you farm, that allows the city to create a couple of specialists. Or, you surround one city mostly with Cottages, maybe just one Farm, and make it your science city.

5. Move your mouse over your score and read the pop-up. You'll get what composes your score. Also, check the various graphs and statistics on the F9 or F8 screen, that'll give you an idea.

6. Don't bother. Your objective should not be to move score specifically. If you do the rest right, your score will be high enough.

7. It doesn't work like that, replays won't show you what the player did...

It might be time for you to check Vel's strategy threads.

Volume III: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=151801
Volume II:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144755

The start of Vol II contains some great things - Vel is an expert Civ player with world-famous guides .

[axisworks]

1. Research techs that are strategic for both war and infrastructure like civil service and monarchy. The best time to trade techs is right after you get them, otherwise the AIs will sit around and trade these techs to each other as soon as they get them from someone else and you'll loose your advantage.

2. I'm not sure what you mean by defenses, but having good relations with your neighbors is more important than having a gigantic military early on. Pay close attention to what religions the people around you have, as relations early in the game are based heavily on religion. If you found a religion and it's in most of your cities, spread it as fast as you can to your friends. The more they have a religion, the less they'll hate you for being a heathen. Focus on building a reasonable defending force too, though. I generall swap off building a building in a town and then a unit (depending on how developed the production level in that town is)

3. You sometimes have to chop to build wonders early on, though it's rare. Build them in the towns with the highest production levels.

4. It just depends on how you set up your cities. I personally don't use that approach, though I do manipulate the specialists when I need to.

5. Scoring is mostly based on your tech level, your accomplishments (both militarily and culture-wise), wonders, and your population.

6. Use wonders and tech slingshots to boost your score. The AI's usually focus on researching religious techs, so focus on Alphabet or Metal Casting instead, and then trade for their techs (but only to your friends!) as soon as you get them. Conquering an enemy or capturing a few cities in a war will also give you a hefty boost, though you'll suffer a short-term gold/research slow-down.

7. Never tried that, sorry.

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Solver


1. You need, most of all, one or two reliable friends that are tech trading partners. I find it that there are techs - Code of Laws, Metal Casting, Alphabet itself - that the AI doesn't get too often early. Hence, if you research these techs first, you can sell them and gain several new techs. If your top tech is Metal Casting, and you sell it to 3 AIs, getting 3 different techs in return, you just made a very good deal.

Ah, so the key is trading it to as many different AIs as possible. Good to know. But what advantage do I have by racing to acquire a tech and then immediately trading it to someone else? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of trying to have a tech lead that allows you to do things others can't? Also, the concept of "reliable friends" means little to me in my experience so far because the AIs seem to turn on me at the drop of a hat. I can't gauge where they're going in their relations with me because it appears quite erratic.

2. It can be hard. ne useful thing is to know the AI personalities - Alexander is far more likely to backstab you than Mansa Musa. Isabella, if you have a different religion, will declare on you, that's a given. Also, are you building Walls perhaps? Don't bother. Not too often. And you don't need to defend your inner cities, you need to defend the cities that are your outer cities and hence at more danger of attack.

Hmm, I find I need every defensive advantage I can get and build walls at pretty much every city. The AI by no means only hits my outer cities. It quite often uses galleys to transport troops and hit me where ever it likes.

3. You decide on your priorities. Early Wonders usually require you build them in your capital, as it's common not to have a second very productive city then. But yes, it's a tradeoff. Building a Wonder means you sacrifice something, like a couple of units.

Yeah, seems logical. My only issue is that even at Noble level the AIs seem able to do both. I can see their cities well stocked with military units but then they're also building wonders and improvements and I'm thinking, "How the hell are they doing both so well at the same time?"

4. Specializing cities is quite doable. I would personally advice, though, not doing it right now, but maybe starting when you're comfortable with Noble. It's a bit more advanced. Generally, city specialization depends on the terrain. If you have a food resource (Wheat, Corn) that you farm, that allows the city to create a couple of specialists. Or, you surround one city mostly with Cottages, maybe just one Farm, and make it your science city.

OK.

7. It doesn't work like that, replays won't show you what the player did...

What's the point then?

It might be time for you to check Vel's strategy threads.

Volume III: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=151801
Volume II:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144755

The start of Vol II contains some great things - Vel is an expert Civ player with world-famous guides .

Actually, I have read Vol II--a couple of times. But I guess it didn't take. I'll give it a read. What happened to Vol. I?

[DaShi]

1. I agree with Solver. I usually try to have at least one close friend to trade with. This is usually the Egyptians. I often end up ahead of them, but give them free tech anyway so they can catch up a bit and have more voting power when the UN shows up. To get a reliable friend you should have the same religion and you'll need to give them gifts. I hardly ever refuse a request from a close friend. Even in declaring war (especially if I'm on the other side of the world ).

2. Having a standing army early on will make the AI less likely to attack. They don't like the idea that their units may be wiped out before they even reach your cities or can pillage your land. Get bronze working and build some spearmen and axemen.

3. Having a stone or marble resource helps a lot. Also, switching to organized religion asap will speed up those wonders.

4. I'm still not that good at this myself. Generally, I look at what a city is already good at and try to improve from there. The top science city will get the science national wonders. Since I usually play aggressive, the cities with the most hammers will get the unit improvement and production national wonders. The culture national wonders, I tend to give to cities that share a border with another nation, generally a place where I want borders to expand.

[Ijuin]

Originally posted by NFIH
Ah, so the key is trading it to as many different AIs as possible. Good to know. But what advantage do I have by racing to acquire a tech and then immediately trading it to someone else? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of trying to have a tech lead that allows you to do things others can't?

Getting a tech lead before you reach Civil Service and switch to Bureaucracy for the 50% commerce/hammer boost in your capital is next to impossible unless you managed to snag The Pyrmaids and switch to Representation. The point of having ONE good tech that nobody else has yet is that you can sell it in exchange for the four or five techs that the AI has that YOU don't have yet--it's a way of catching up from behind.

You might benefit from trying the Civil Service Slingshot. Here's how it works:

First of all, this strategy is easiest if your leader has the Spiritual, Industrious, Financial, or Philosophical trait (even better if you have two of the above traits). Aggressive and Creative will not help you in making the Slingshot, and Expansionist and Organized will only give you a small benefit this early in the game.

Now, you want to get a Great Prophet as early as possible, so grab an early religion--most of the time you can manage to get Hinduism if you beeline for it (Mysticism-->Polytheism), because the AI civs are all trying to race each other to get Buddhism (Meditation) since it's slightly cheaper. Once you have a religion, build a Temple and assign a Priest to start generating Great People points right away. An alternative tactic if you are Industrious (especially Gandhi) and/or have Stone available is to build Stonehenge, which will give you free Great Prophet points per turn.

Once you have your religion, go straight for Priesthood so that you can build The Oracle. DO NOT start building The Oracle right away when you get Priesthood. You want The Oracle to be completed just AFTER you get your Great Prophet AND you have finished all of the prerequisites for Code of Laws (Meditation, Priesthood, Writing).

IMPORTANT: Unless you were getting Judaism as your first religion, you should NOT have researched Masonary. If you have Masonary but not Monotheism, then lightbulbing your Great Prophet will give you Monotheism instead of Code of Laws.

So, now you have all of the prerequisites for Code of Laws, you have a Great Prophet, and The Oracle is nearing completion. Ideally the year should be before 500 B.C., but that is not necessary as long as the AI does not beat you finishing The Oracle. So what you do now is to use your Great Prophet to discover Code of Laws (and incidentally probably founding Confucianism). Then, when The Oracle is completed, you choose Civil Service as your free advance.

Now that you have gained Civil Service at the earliest possible date, you want to immediately switch to Bureaucracy. This will boost the base commerce/hammer production of your capital by 50%, which is a significant amount prior to the Renaissance Age. Your goal here is to build your Capital into a major Science city--you want to build every science-boosting building possible in your Capital--Library, every Monastery possible, an Academy (as soon as you get a Great Scientist--you should assign one or two Scientist specialists when you build your Library in order to generate the Great Scientist points), an Observatory, a University, and when it becomes available, Oxford University. Building The Great Library in your capital also is a nice bonus but not essential. If you do all of this, your capital can be producing up to five hundred science beakers per turn by the time Oxford University is completed.

[Solver]

Ah, so the key is trading it to as many different AIs as possible. Good to know. But what advantage do I have by racing to acquire a tech and then immediately trading it to someone else? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of trying to have a tech lead that allows you to do things others can't? Also, the concept of "reliable friends" means little to me in my experience so far because the AIs seem to turn on me at the drop of a hat. I can't gauge where they're going in their relations with me because it appears quite erratic

As Ijuin explains, you don't get a tech lead only. Unless you're playing like two difficulty levels below what's your level, you aren't going to get an early tech lead. But trading one tech to three AIs benefits you. Three AIs gain the same new tech, you gain three different techs. As a result, you have more building and research choices than the AIs.

Well, some techs you shouldn't trade. Use your common sense there. If you're planning to attack a civ that has Horses, don't sell them Horseback Riding. If you want to build the Colossus, don't go selling Metal Casting until you're done or nearly done with the Wonder.

Your problem to As backstabbing you is related to your weak military, you're probably doing something wrong there. Generally, most AIs won't attack you for the sake of it, they'll need a decent reason. However, if your military is much weaker, than just about any AI might attack. Still, maintaining good relations makes them less likely to
attack.

Hmm, I find I need every defensive advantage I can get and build walls at pretty much every city. The AI by no means only hits my outer cities. It quite often uses galleys to transport troops and hit me where ever it likes.

Okay, that's part of your problem. Building Walls everywhere is a waste of time, there you have one reason why you fall behind on the other stuff. I find that early on, one Archer per a city is sufficient defense, with another couple of Archers being where you need them. What you do is connect your cities with roads. In the case of Galley attacks, they're easier to fend off. You're generally looking at 2 or 4 units landing. But you can spot the galley a few turns in advance, so when you do, look at which city it's going for, and move some extra defenders to that city.

You've noticed the AI has a lot of units. You don't need to do the same. You don't need 3 defenders per city early on, like the AI does. The AI needs it just because it's too open to an attack otherwise, the AI naturally needs more units because of its inherent weaknesses.

Axemen are good. Once you hook up Copper or Iron, you want to have an Axeman somewhere. It can deal with the Barbarians, it can help vs. incoming attacks.

Oh, remember that cultural defense helps a lot. Suppose your city has +40% defense from culture, that just takes 100 culture on Normal speed. Now, if the city has an Archer fortified in it, that's already one tough guy to beat.

Don't underestimate religion. It can help your economy out, but it's amazingly important for diplomacy. If everyone around you is either Buddhist or Hindu, but you go found Judaism and switch to that, you will have sour relations. If you found an early religion and convert enough folks to that, things will be much better for you.

In fact, one guy played a "nonviolent" game of Civ. That is, he didn't build a single military unit throughout the entire game. Obviously, the hardest part about such an approach is not getting declared on. AIs like declaring vs. militarily weak civs, and a declaration of war clearly means death if you have no military units.

It probably isn't directly relevant to yout questions, but I suggest you take a look at that game anyway. It's entertaining, at the very least.

http://www.compoundeye.net/civ/nonviolent/index.html

[NFIH]

Your problem to As backstabbing you is related to your weak military, you're probably doing something wrong there. Generally, most AIs won't attack you for the sake of it, they'll need a decent reason. However, if your military is much weaker, than just about any AI might attack. Still, maintaining good relations makes them less likely to attack.

You have a point but I have also noticed that weaker AIs attack me as well. It seems to be more about local superiority rather than overall size of military. If a weaker AI can take out one or two cities of mine in rapid succession my position becomes untenable, even if I'm technically stronger. But perhaps better and more vigilant defensive positioning is the key. That's what I'm doing in my current game (that is, watching exactly what and how many units are in directly neighbouring civs and keeping my closest cities with a large enough force to deter declaration of war). Of course, in this particular game I happen to have a great geographic position where the entrance to my empire is via a bottleneck that I've also got a city over. How well I can pull this off in a more typical situation where I've got potential enemies on all sides remains to be seen.

Okay, that's part of your problem. Building Walls everywhere is a waste of time, there you have one reason why you fall behind on the other stuff. I find that early on, one Archer per a city is sufficient defense, with another couple of Archers being where you need them. What you do is connect your cities with roads. In the case of Galley attacks, they're easier to fend off. You're generally looking at 2 or 4 units landing. But you can spot the galley a few turns in advance, so when you do, look at which city it's going for, and move some extra defenders to that city.

Yeah, I do build roads ASAP. But one archer is definitely not enough even with normal barbarian setting. As soon as they get axemen you better have more than just one archer. Against civs, it of course depends on how large their own forces are.

You've noticed the AI has a lot of units. You don't need to do the same. You don't need 3 defenders per city early on, like the AI does. The AI needs it just because it's too open to an attack otherwise, the AI naturally needs more units because of its inherent weaknesses.

On the other hand, the AI builds its cities quite close together and can mass its forces extremely quickly. So that force of three units becomes nine in the blink of an eye. I build strength enough (not nine--say, 3-5) to defend against that size a force. Still wrong?

In fact, one guy played a "nonviolent" game of Civ. That is, he didn't build a single military unit throughout the entire game. Obviously, the hardest part about such an approach is not getting declared on. AIs like declaring vs. militarily weak civs, and a declaration of war clearly means death if you have no military units.

It probably isn't directly relevant to yout questions, but I suggest you take a look at that game anyway. It's entertaining, at the very least.

http://www.compoundeye.net/civ/nonviolent/index.html

Just finished reading it. Awesome. Thanks for the link.

[Solver]

You'll notice that, as the defender, you have the advantage, in city fighting. 5 defenders in a city should be able to deal with 9 attackers comfortably, before siege. If you have 5 defenders, then 5 archers isn't the best thing to have. A good thing is, say, 2 archers, 2 axemen and a spearman. That way, the AI doesn't have any unit which could attack and immediately have a winning chance. If it attacks with Axemen/Swordsmen, your Axeman wins. If it attacks with Horse Archers, your spearman wins. If it attacks with something else, like a Shock-promoted Axeman, your Archer defends and probably wins.

I certainly err on the side of underdefending my cities early in the game. I make sure I set up a position to defend against the Barbarians comfortably, but my defenses aren't great, I count more on the AIs not attacking early. I always make an exception with Montezuma, though, if he's nearby, I prepare for war...

[NFIH]

Originally posted by Ijuin


Getting a tech lead before you reach Civil Service and switch to Bureaucracy for the 50% commerce/hammer boost in your capital is next to impossible unless you managed to snag The Pyrmaids and switch to Representation. The point of having ONE good tech that nobody else has yet is that you can sell it in exchange for the four or five techs that the AI has that YOU don't have yet--it's a way of catching up from behind.

You might benefit from trying the Civil Service Slingshot. Here's how it works:

Very interesting. How often (10% of the time? 50% of the time? etc.) can a player expect to pull this off? It seems like it would be unlikely, especially as the number of AI players increases, because of the huge number of particular events that have to occur and in a specific order.

If you try it and get beat to a required tech/wonder for whatever reason, how do you suggest a player recover? I find losing wonder races to be quite devastating because of the lost opportunity cost. Sure you get money for the aborted build but the time! I could have built several buildings and units in that time. And then I'm even further behind. Ugh.

[Solver]

On Noble, the Civil Service slingshot can be accomplished most of the time. The key, of course, is knowing from the start that you're going for that, getting Meditation, building the Oracle and timing it so that by the time you build it you have the prerequisites for civil service.

Don't let lost wonder races discourage you. That money is good for something. Maybe you can raise your research spending, running at a GPT deficit. I often build a new city after losing a wonder race - the money I got should be enough to cover the increased maintenance expenses for a while.

[Blake]

A skilled player doing CS slingshot on noble is 100%, or at least 99%

because of the huge number of particular events that have to occur and in a specific order.

And when you consider the AI does things basically at random, they have nearly no chance of beating a dedicated human to the oracle!

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by NFIH
Ah, so the key is trading it to as many different AIs as possible. Good to know. But what advantage do I have by racing to acquire a tech and then immediately trading it to someone else?

The key is to trade the same tech to as many civs as possible on the same turn. If you gain 4-5 tech with one new tech you just discovered, you come out way ahead. Do that a few times, and you'll be well on your way to victory.

Originally posted by NFIH
You have a point but I have also noticed that weaker AIs attack me as well.

Check the stats often. Make sure you're in the top 1/3 in terms of military power.

[Badtz Maru]

One thing I've found that helps my defense is to turn on "Show Enemy Movement". This is annoying at the beginning of the game when the camera pans around to show you every lion and bear within visual range each turn, but once barbarians start attacking, being aware of the incoming threat as soon as they approach your borders will give you time to concentrate your defenses there.