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Using Great People : A short look at the Golden Age

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  • Using Great People : A short look at the Golden Age

    Perhaps the most underutilised, and possibly undervalued, of the uses of Great People is the starting of a Golden Age. As a result, the Golden Age use of GPs has attracted little investigation so, in the interests of expanding our collective understanding of the game, I took a look at a few numbers from a game to see how we might compare it with other uses.

    Before I go into detail, let’s perhaps consider where a Golden Age might be a valuable use of GPs. To do this we have to compare it with the three other uses of our GPs, namely:

    1) Settling in a city
    2) Rushing a tech (or speeding up research in the same)
    3) Special ability (rush build, great work, academy, shrine, trade mission)

    It is easy to see when we might select the first option since the benefit generated from settling GPs is a fixed (and small) increase in food, production, gold, beakers, and/or culture for the duration of the game. A GP who settles early in the game with therefore produce more than one who settles later. The benefit of settling reduces as the game progresses in contrast to all the other uses.

    The other important thing to realise is that settling in a city affects the base input values of a city rather than directly affecting the output.

    The second option, rushing a tech, is the simplest and easiest to consider since this gives us a “base value” (measured in beakers) of the GP that we have. The amount of beakers generated depends on the population of the civilisation and on the association of the type of GP with the techs available. In some cases, it seems that certain types of GPs may actually “run out” of techs to rush.

    So when might this option give a better value than the other three? The answer to this question is best made by reversing it. If we use the “base value” as our starting point then what we need to find out is when to select another alternative over the “lightbulb” option. We have already made a basic attempt to answer this for the “settling” option in the previous example so it remains to see when we might want to use the special ability of contribute our GP as one half of a Golden Age initiation.

    At this point, it might also be suggested that the GP could be used to rush a “wonder tech”. Although normally, I might use this term simply to apply to techs that give a one-off benefit to the first civ to reach that far. But it could also refer to any tech that provides an opportunity with its early discovery that would not be available later. Examples of this would include: rushing a tech as part of a sling tactic (eg rushing CoL to allow Oracle to get CS), or simply rushing a tech that gives a major military advantage which could be converted into profitable conquests.

    The third option is the most varied since it combines some which give a sudden rush (culture or gold) and others that require time to pay off (shrine and academy). The rush build is both of these. For wonders where the build is almost assured, a rush build is simply a free hammer bonus. For those where the build is unlikely to be finished the benefit is the “value” of the wonder benefits over the duration of its life. Either way, we can place a value on the special ability and compare it to our “lightbulb” to determine for ourselves the better use. Because of the nature of the special abilities, those of Prophets and GS are likely to be better value early in the game while GA and GM are of more value in the middle-to-late game where the real comparison will be between a “lightbulb” and using the special ability. For the GE rush build, the hammer bonus approach tends to give a relatively poor value so, if we consider the real value of the GE rush as the value of the build itself, then we have to consider each individual build on its own merits.

    So finally we return to the original subject, that of the Golden Age. Like the first option of settling, the Golden Age affects base city inputs of production and commerce. But like the second option of “lightbulbing” a Golden Age is really a “shot in the arm” benefit because the period of the direct benefit is relatively short. So far a start we can at least surmise that the Golden Age is a late-game option.

    Unlike all of the other options, the Golden Age requires two GPs so the burning of these for one Golden Age needs to be compared to the alternative benefits that both of these might provide.

    But how do we even measure the real effect of the Golden Age. Since it attaches to the basic tile benefits, it might at first be difficult to see what effect this has on the set output. Burning two GPs just to see what happens can be an expensive experiment if we find out that we get a lot less than we had hoped. But equally, we don’t really want to go through every city and calculate a “before” and “after” output of science, gold and hammers on which to base our decision.

    Fortunately, the Taj Mahal is on hand to help us so we don’t need to do anything more than compare the civilisation wide output with and without the Golden Age. This is what I have done and noticed the following effect on output in the turn after the Golden Age ended.

    Science reduced by 210 bpt
    Production reduced by 48 hpt.

    The production number surprised me a little since I had around 20 cities and it would be very odd to find that less than 3 tiles per city we producing a hammer – notwithstanding that these hammers will also be affected by building and civic multipliers. Let’s assume that I got things wrong and the actual figure should be 80 hpt. It is quite possible that certain tile improvements or city growth has led to an increase in the base hpt which managed to partly offset the Golden Age bonus.

    For comparison with other figures, I will have to explain that the situation was on Epic so the Golden Age lasts 12 turns.

    Total benefit = 210b * 12 + 80h * 12

    = 2520b + 960h.

    Let’s now assume that we can value hammers to beakers at a rate of 2h=3b. The precise number you ought to use would vary over time and reflect the different multipliers you have for each city. If your average hammer multiplier is +50% and your average science multiplier is +100% then the ratio is 3h=4b.

    With a 2:3 ratio we get

    Total benefit = 2520b + 960h*3b/2h = 3960b

    In other words, our individual GPs would need to be worth more than 2000b each (by using a different ability) for that option to be preferred over the Golden Age.

    Of course, I DO have some other information on the immediate value of GPs since I had recently sent a GM to Delhi for trade and netted a healthy 2800g. What’s more, one adjusting the slider rate in the “Finances” sheet, I can deduce that my gold/beakers conversion rate is approximately 1g=1.4b.

    Applying this to the trade mission income I can place a minimum value of 4000b the trade income “shot in the arm”. In other words, if I had a Great Merchant and lesser value GP, I would be better off killing the other GP and sending the Great Merchant on a trade mission than burning both of them for a Golden Age.

    This is perhaps a rather particular example and I prefer to think that it illustrates the high value of the GM’s special ability rather than the poor value of the Golden Age options. Merchants aside, a lot of GPs at this stage of the game may have lost the key value that they add to the game and so revert to their base value of “lightbulbing”.

    I do hold out a certain hope that there will be situations where the equations change. For larger empires with large developed cities (and plenty of mixed production and commerce tiles from windmills, watermills, specials etc) the Golden Age can be a truly powerful option. But for even a medium sized empire, my advice would be to stick with the more traditional uses of those GPs and, in the late game, this will mean “lightbulbing” for most of them.

  • #2
    The Taj Mahal is also an "exception" case where one GP (Engineer) can, albeit indirectly, usher in a Golden Age.

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    • #3
      Hmm, interesting... I've have to read this over thoroughly, but it's reassuring on face, given that I'm a fan of golden ages. Sometimes i'll use them to usher in a wave of universities/labs/whatever important building across my civ.

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      • #4
        I'd happily spend an Artist and a Prophet on a GA, but my cottage heavy landscapes don't lend themselves to receiving much benefit unless I'm running Gov:US

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        • #5
          I do agree that wasting two great people on a Golden Age is not worth it. For me, in my last game, I started a Golden Age and I was still behind. I should have rather used them to discover a technology- which is usually what I do with them. Except engineers who I use to build wonders and merchants who I have do a trade mission. But the rest I find it far more beneficial to discover a tech. This is especially true when you realize for your second Golden Age, you have to sacrifice three great people, and four for the third, so on...
          It is your concern when your neighbor's wall is on fire.

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          • #6
            I think the biggest problem with the Golden Age use is that your first GP has to sit around for 30?-40?-50?... turns waiting for the second one to get built. The one-time shot in the arm plus 30 turns to benefit from it is worth more than the initial value.

            If you do your research and get lucky and find that you'll get a couple of cities producing GP within a few turns, and they both turn out to be less useful types for your current plans, and it's late enough in the game that moving into a city isn't going to pay off, then maybe, only then, would you consider the Golden Age option.

            Ze Ace

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            • #7
              You tend to use merchants to do trade missions? I tend to park them in a city. Those +1 foods can do a lot in the right city...
              Participating in my threads is mandatory. Those who do not do so will be forced, in their next game, to play a power directly between Catherine and Montezuma.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by JackRudd
                You tend to use merchants to do trade missions? I tend to park them in a city. Those +1 foods can do a lot in the right city...
                Oh come on, a GM is a free war! 1500 in the kitty and upgrade everything to Knights/Cavalry.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Senethro


                  Oh come on, a GM is a free war! 1500 in the kitty and upgrade everything to Knights/Cavalry.
                  Agreed. If you were devious, couldn't you save up 1 or 2 gmercs, and send in a rather archaic looking attack force that shouldn't warrant any particular attention, then blam blam, two turns and a mess for the the other fellow.

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                  • #10
                    I usually find I have enough in the kitty for upgrades anyway. Which probably means I'm playing on too easy a difficulty level.
                    Participating in my threads is mandatory. Those who do not do so will be forced, in their next game, to play a power directly between Catherine and Montezuma.

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                    • #11
                      It occurs to me you could be more rigourosly scientific:
                      Save the game.
                      Open WB and add in 2 great people.
                      Take note of Hammer/Commerce
                      Activate the GA.
                      Take note of Hammer/Commerce.

                      I happen to have some games I could do this in, so I will.

                      Your conclusions match my intution and also calculations, you need a very large empire for a GA to pay off over cash bomb. However a good Cash bomb is extremely above-par, while a GA can be triggered by 2 junk GP's, like Arist and Prophet.
                      The best GP's are Merchants (Cash Bomb), Scientists (Biggest Lightbulb) and Engineers (Situational Hammers)

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                      • #12
                        Game 1:
                        This is an islands map so there is an extreme abundance of water tiles being worked. Numbers are read straight from the GNP/Mfg demographics figures, so the gold is acutally pre-multipliers (the GNP figure isn't really accurate or anything, sicne it's raw yield - inflated costs, but the *difference* is accurate)

                        The year is about 1500AD, my largest city is about size 13, and I have quite a lot of cities, more than 1 page in the Domestic Adviser and my tech is in the ballpark of Sci.Method.

                        Gold: 109 -> 263 = 152
                        Hammers: 100 -> 162 = 62

                        I'm going to make an educated guess at my commerce multipliers, probably near enough to 50% (library, university, market, grocer in most cities, Free Religion, Big.B in capital but quite a few few cities with poor infrastructure)
                        So we'll say 225 commerce/turn.
                        The hammer multiplier is likely to be about 30%, on average (Big.B in capital, many forges). We'll say 80 hammers/turn.

                        The grand total over 10 turns (epic speed) is:
                        2250 Commerce
                        800 Hammers

                        This isn't a bad yield really, about a cash bomb + hammer bomb (a Scientist produces 2250 beakers for beaker bomb, exactly). Considering it can be done with an artist and prophet, that's not bad. It's unlikely to be worth spending 3 GP on though.

                        Later, about 1940AD:
                        The empire has swollen dramatically, with the addition of many new cities, and the largest city is size 26, with many other large cities.

                        GNP: 1180 -> 1747 = 567
                        Mfg: 394 -> 544 = 150

                        We'll guesstimate the commrece multipliers to be about 75%. While infrastructure has improved, the capital is much smaller and thus Big.B matters less. So we'll say 1000 commerce/turn.
                        The hammer multiplier is likely to be about +100%. While most cities only have forges, Ironworks in the capital is a large part of this, and other good-hammer cities have a factory and coal plant. So we'll call it 300 hammers/turn.

                        The Grand Total over 10 turns is:
                        10,000 commerce/turn.
                        3000 hammers/turn.

                        It should be clear I think that it would pretty much be profitable to keep making GA's in a large empire until it is impractical to do so.
                        Last edited by Blake; May 9, 2006, 07:09.

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                        • #13
                          Your golden age statistics are for a 12 turn golden age, but I thought they were 8 turns long. Are they extended for Epic/Marathon?

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                          • #14
                            Naturally, altough I made a mistake, it's only 10 turns on epic.
                            On Epic GP cost 50% more points to generate and all relevant effects are scaled by 50% (ie cash bomb produces 50% more cash). Golden age are 25% longer.

                            On Marathon they take 200% more to generate, and all effects are scalled by 200%, except Golden Age which is 100% longer.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Blake
                              Game 1:
                              The year is about 1500AD, my largest city is about size 13, and
                              ...
                              The grand total over 10 turns (epic speed) is:
                              2250 Commerce
                              800 Hammers

                              Later, about 1940AD:
                              The empire has swollen dramatically, with the addition of many new cities, and the largest city is size 26, with many other large cities.
                              ...
                              The Grand Total over 10 turns is:
                              10,000 commerce/turn.
                              3000 hammers/turn.

                              It should be clear I think that it would pretty much be profitable to keep making GA's in a large empire until it is impractical to do so.
                              Thanks for taking the time to run the numbers in a controlled experiment. It makes me think of two questions:

                              1. Is 2250 commerce and 800 hammers in 1500AD worth more or less than 10,000 commerce and 3000 hammers in 1940 AD?

                              2. Is it worth holding onto those Ancient/Classical/Medieval Great Engineers/Scientists/Merchants for late game golden ages?

                              I realize a definitive answer is not possible, as it depends on the context of the game. For example, you might be far behind the AI and need the techs from a Great Person to enable trades. In a vacuum (i.e. there are no opponents) my guess is running your last N turns in a Golden Age would be the most efficient use for ALL your GPs. I would not have said that before reading this post.

                              Darrell

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