A case study on the utility of whipping

[cynyck]

For anyone who still does not get it that a turn of research, some smarter micro-management, or whipping a settler can make the difference, last night I lost a Prince game to Roosevelt when he launched the turn before I would have.

In fact, I lost by some 28 hammers. I reloaded an auto save and took a close look at the city screen in the city I was building my last spaceship part in and realized two tiles were blacked out. It turned out that both tiles were grassland trees with lumbermills and railroad, and when I opened them up and clicked through the next three turns, I launched before Roosevelt.

Either way, a turn of research or some smarter micro-management and I could have won the game.

Or, perhaps if I had whipped a settler . . .

[Janster]

Greetings.

I have something to say, I didn't read all your stats on the subject today, but I must admit it was pretty impressive.

I have just recently done a fight against a very elite CIV 4 player.

This guy is a monster and usually plays on DEITY levels.

Now taking some time off we figured we'd play a 3 player civ with some AI's thrown in.

Now, I read up on this site, and choose a few strategies to have a chance against this fellow, we choose Monarch level of difficulty aswell.

Basically I tried for the ORACLE grab with chopping and whipping. It was a disaster and afterwards he told me, that his research proved that while chopping is a good one, whipping never pays off ,it just kills of pop that would do better producing, and in the long run you loos e a -lot- of research and production by killing off.

Basically the one guy you whipped off, might be out of action for 5-10 turns depending on food levels, which is a lot of hammers or research.

Needless to say, despite me following Apolytpton strategy to the letter, he mauled me, reaching excess of 2000 + points by AD 500 or so.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Janster

[Blake]

Are you sure he wasn't talk about whipping in the context of a slingshot? In that case I'd most definitely agree, because your population is extremely limited and you NEED it to research to get to whatever tech ASAP, and you also need excess pop for running 2 scientists (or a priest) to get an Academy/Lightbulb a tech.]

edit:

Basically the one guy you whipped off, might be out of action for 5-10 turns depending on food levels, which is a lot of hammers or research.

Effective whipping is always designed to knock off 2 or more pop. Killing 1 is a at best a break even proposition because you lose 1 population to the unhappiness.
It can be okay to do in emergency or when exploiting Whipping Rounding Errors (tm) but generally big whips are better, provided the city has the food surplus to grow back.

[Ijuin]

Whipping only really benefits you in the long run when your city is pushing its population limit, although it is worth more when it is the health limit that is being stretched rather than the happy limit.

[Mr Justice]

i think those negative observations that Janster and possibly Ijuin note really only applies to your capital, certainly your 2nd city onwards you should consider whipping. the only cities that i would have 2nd thought on are cities dedicated to cottages. where your cottages wont grow due to not being worked, but i would still try to do some back of the envelope calculations to see if a particular building was worth it.

[Frank Johnson]

Are these numbers only good on normal, or do they get better/worse on epic and marathon?

[couerdelion]

I find it hard to believe that anyone can play Deity without needed to resort to the whip. It's just too powerful a bonus to forego. I can see some logic in avoiding whipping in certain situations. For example, a rich bureaucratic capital will want to be maximising it's tile output so the cost of missing citizens can be high.

Frank,Epic level has the additional benefit of allowing a 1 pop chop when 31+ hammers are still needed to complete the build. You still get the hammers in bundles of 30 so can end up with 60 hammers/pop.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Frank Johnson
Are these numbers only good on normal, or do they get better/worse on epic and marathon?

It's all exactly the same... if anything I'd say whipping is more powerful on epic. If nothing else when doing the 8-pop settler pump, it's easier to add less than 15 stuff than less than 10 stuff.

On Marathon settlers cost 200 (doubled) while time to grow and whip hammers are tripled. So each whip produces 90 hammers. This means you can whip settlers out for 2 pop after about 4 turns of normal investment. Because this whipping is happening at lower population levels, it takes even less food to grow and there's an even larger advantage for whipping in terms of hammers/food. Might even be worth it without a granary.

couerdelion, on epic the whip hammers come in bundles of 44...

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Blake

couerdelion, on epic the whip hammers come in bundles of 44...

I've never got 44 hammers (or 88 or 132) for a pop-rush. Always 30,60,90,120 etc

[Blake]

I suggest being more observant . By the way it has changed over patches...

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Blake
I suggest being more observant . By the way it has changed over patches...

My game hasn't