2 questions

[guermantes]

hello,

1) Is there an obvious reason as to why in this screenshot the AI does not propose to me to found the new city in the tile where I am standing? My access to resources seem to me to be better in the tile I stand in.



2) In the following screenshot Alexander declared war on me by coming in an unmanned galley from a different continent. He sat there outside my city for 280 years just looking at me (I tried twice to offer 10 turns of peace but he just frowned and said I had been behaving badly) until he finally came with another ship with 5 horse archers which I whacked speadily with my pikemen. He sued for peace 2 turns later.

Was the AI strategically observing me for 280 years first to see what I was doing or was this just bad AI ? (My pikemen were mainly brought in from afar when I saw him coming so he would not have seen them from his boat during the 280 years.)

[Ijuin]

I can't speak on the galley, but I think on the city founding problem, the computer is looking at the productivity of the city as it would be BEFORE you chop down the jungle, thus it considers the two adjacent tiles to be more productive sites. The computer takes potential future tile improvements into account, but does not do so for forest/jungle chopping--it assumes that the jungle will stay.

[faustus]

From what I've seen in other posts on the subject, and what I've observed myself, the AI when recommending city sites takes into account information you dont have. Quite often I've trusted it and founded a city where it told me to, and found horses, or copper or later coal or oil pop within the city borders that would have been outside if I'd founded where I wanted to (or vice versa, so frustrating to watch copper pop just outside our capital's fat cross. I dont know if anyone has proved this yet, but I've observed anecdotal evidence of it, and seen other people talk about it.

[zabrak]

In general, whenever you observe seemingly irrational behavior from the AI, and you ask yourself, "Is the AI being really clever or really dumb?", the answer is the latter.

I'd found three cities, incidentally: on the first pic, one NW of your settler as a commerce city, and one W of your archer as a production city, and on the second pic, two E of your scout.

[joncnunn]

On that screenshot, I think it would depend upon how close you are to Iron Working. If Iron Working is a long ways off, a coastal city would be much better than both your current tile and the two the AI is sugesting. (That is, if founding a city is worth it at all now)

Now Post Iron-Working, both AI spots have the advantage of not having three permantely subpar tiles (as water tiles worked by non-coastal cities are)

In addition, both of the AI sugested spots presumably have less jungle -> less unhealthiness.

[cynyck]

one NW of your settler as a commerce city, and one W of your archer as a production city

Yes, zabrak, I was thinking the same thing - two cities. But I would put the commerce city on top of the northernmost elephant. I see two other elephants and I usually only camp one if I have more than one. I hate to trade strategic resources unless its to a "vassal" civ that I left with one city and am grooming for tech trades. I always farm all extra elephants. But, I am only playing at Prince and have no idea if this is feasible on higher levels.

By founding on top of the elephant, I get the elephant (even though I lose the production bonus camping gives) and can farm the others. I also get three more sea tiles for commerce.

My experience is extra strategic resources result inevitably in an agg civ demanding it in tribute. I refuse, because I am not going to give them the horses to build horse archers to then attack me with to secure the horses for themselves, and that results in "annoyed" which eventually results in an attack, which always comes at that point when I have neglected my army for ten turns.

I seem to do that a lot - ignore my army for ten turns. Alex likes that. So does Monty. And Ghengis. I just hate the way they show their gratitude, though.

[zabrak]

While it's true that our friend would get three more sea tiles, and leave nothing unworked, those three are single-commerce only, and will never do anything more than feed themselves. However, he (she? I'm sorry) would give up the fruit tile for that city under your proposal - the sugar and wheat provide enough extra food to work the three (four, if one is taken from Texoco) hills in the production city I proposed. The extra food for the coastal commerce city we're discussing is more valuable - specialists do much better work for commerce purposes than production, at least until factories and power plants. And as you mentioned, there's also the camped ivory bonuses that would be lost as well.

I think you'll find that placing a city on top of a resource will hook up that resource to your trade network, provided you have the appropriate tech (Monarchy for wine, Agriculture for wheat/rice/corn, etc.), which means that your point about not having extra resources available to avoid demands is moot. If you're really worried about having to refuse AIs, just don't build a road to more than one.

The other thing I've been thinking about relates to guermantes' other post about food trading - I try to plan in advance to whom I'll be trading, and only build as many roads as necessary, for the reason you mention. The exception is meat resources -- cows/deer/pigs/sheep -- which I always hook up. This is because a) the unhealthy cap is much less painful than the unhappy cap, b) supermarkets don't come until pretty late in the game, c) for trade purposes, the AI treats all luxury/food resources as though they're of equal worth. Getting silver for pigs is a sweet deal - 2 happy points for virtually every city, plus that AI likes you more, and the AI only gets one health point out of it.

[cynyck]

While it's true that our friend would get three more sea tiles, and leave nothing unworked, those three are single-commerce only, and will never do anything more than feed themselves. However, he (she? I'm sorry) would give up the fruit tile for that city under your proposal - the sugar and wheat provide enough extra food to work the three (four, if one is taken from Texoco) hills in the production city I proposed. The extra food for the coastal commerce city we're discussing is more valuable - specialists do much better work for commerce purposes than production, at least until factories and power plants. And as you mentioned, there's also the camped ivory bonuses that would be lost as well.

I understand your point. Two things. I was wrong, it will only be two additional sea tiles because we are already on the northern coast. And I forgot that the second level sea tiles are only one commerce. I almost always play a financial leader and also almost always go for the Colossus, giving me three commerce in those tiles.

I think you'll find that placing a city on top of a resource will hook up that resource to your trade network, provided you have the appropriate tech (Monarchy for wine, Agriculture for wheat/rice/corn, etc.), which means that your point about not having extra resources available to avoid demands is moot. If you're really worried about having to refuse AIs, just don't build a road to more than one.

I am missing something. Perhaps not, perhaps I was simply not clear enough. This is what I was trying to say - found on top of the elephant and get the resource but not the production (elephants and ivory but not the hammer and commerce is it?). Then I would farm the rest. But I do see that you are correct, I could also camp the elephants but not road the tile. However, farming gives me the extra pop so I guess its a case-by-case decision.

c) for trade purposes, the AI treats all luxury/food resources as though they're of equal worth. Getting silver for pigs is a sweet deal - 2 happy points for virtually every city, plus that AI likes you more, and the AI only gets one health point out of it.

Yes, I have noticed that. I love the reverse also - getting a health resource plus some coin in exchange for giving one of my extra gold. Which is why, as someone else pointed out in another thread, it is always best to not accept an AI trade offer without negotiating first.

[zabrak]

The Collosus is a neat wonder for exactly that reason. However, it's elegantly nerfed, since on the water maps on which it's most valuable you'll be racing for the tech that obsoletes it: Astronomy.

I can see the comparative advantage of farming ivory when it's on plains, since there are circumstances when a city's got no food resources or farmable grasslands or floodplains, meaning every tile has to pull its own weight or it doesn't get worked. That's far from the case here; on top of which, our friend will have to wait until Civil Service, and then chain 4-6 farms out to that elephant.

My trading priorities, from the most likely category to give up to the least, are:

Meats
Seafoods
Incense
Grains
Grocer's
Dyes
Market's
Jewelery
Strategic - Buildings
Strategic - Units

There's some tweaking, of course - the AI's too dumb to realize that Fur/Ivory/Whale are useless one turn before they're obsoleted, or if I've got the Eiffel Tower, Iron is a harmless trade in the late-game.

One last note - there's a narrow window before an invasion in which it makes sense to trade some big-ticket happiness resources to an AI. You let their cities' population grow, then when you declare war, those extra citizens are either useless or force a suboptimal reallocation of tiles worked. But when you take the city and restore those resources, you've got more citizens with which to work.

[cynyck]

One last note - there's a narrow window before an invasion in which it makes sense to trade some big-ticket happiness resources to an AI. You let their cities' population grow, then when you declare war, those extra citizens are either useless or force a suboptimal reallocation of tiles worked. But when you take the city and restore those resources, you've got more citizens with which to work.

Boy, you keep bringing up such interesting points. Interesting for me, at least. I do like the idea of trading with an AI civ just before hammering it so that it really hurts that civ when we go to war and the trades are cut off. I also try to do this with a civ I think is about to attack me. And you are absolutely correct about the narrow window. It has to be long enough to allow them to grow, for sure.

This is another consideration for trading. In Guermantes' "Diplomatic Trading" thread I was trying to make the point that there is so much to consider when trading. But I am afraid I was not very clear.

One other point about elephants. I cannot think of another resource that gives you a production bonus if you develop it, along with a happiness bonus (for the ivory), and a strategic bonus in that you can build war elephants. Although, iron and copper have an added kick also because they will speed up certain wonders. Marble and stone speed up wonders but do not have any military value.

[zabrak]

It has to be long enough to allow them to grow

And short enough so that they don't become too tough a nut to crack.

I cannot think of another resource that gives you a production bonus if you develop it, along with a happiness bonus (for the ivory), and a strategic bonus

Ivory is the only resource that hits all four categories. There are quite a few that get three - horses/oil/aluminum are only missing the happy bonus, and gold/silver/gems/whale are only missing the strategic quality. Personally, I've always wanted whale-chariots as an early frigate, but that's probably because I enjoyed the worm-riders from Dune so much.

Marble and stone speed up wonders but do not have any military value.

Tell that to my Pyramid > Police State and Oracle > Civil Service powered Macemen wave.

[Urban Ranger]

I think you should move the settler up one tile for a coastal city. You get the same specials, and you get to work the sea tiles as well. I usually consider city sites one away from the coast the worst.

[Silver14]

Up one more would be right on the Gems. You get some benefit from building on top of resources, but nowhere near as much as mineing the tile and working it instead.

[Urban Ranger]

Okay, I didn't see that. Up and one to the left, then. You lose the wheat, but that's no big deal given access to the ocean tiles.

[Silver14]

Na, plop the city on the Banana. Who doesn't want delectable fruit in their town square after all?