Bad starting place - What do you do???

[HaplessHorde]

off to a bad start

I've bailed on a few games where I got a lousy starting location. My current game, I am actually in a good place, but my neighbors snuck in and built little cancer cities behind my back to block off resources.

No joke, I had a warrior guarding a jem horde, and as soon as I moved him over a few squares to take a peek at the neighborhood, a rival settler bolted in and set up camp!

And then, being a weakling, I started getting picked on, and wars just drag you further down the rank.

But it doesn't help the aggressor either, if he isn't strong enough to take over your territory quickly. So I'm being stubborn, building military units and fortifying some nearby farms and just making myself a porcupine, and it seems to be working. Twice I've been attacked and then had the aggressor civ plead for peace without me ever moving into their territory. They are just pissing away time and resources attacking my fortified units.

Try to make friends with at least one nearby civ, and as many others as you can. Often I found that a more powerful ally would declare war on my enemy "as a favor for a friend." It sure helps.

[stevesk]

Also losing turns that early may put you in a hole that you can't climb back out, esp when you play on emperor+ levels.

Could you explain me why? I know you begin to be much time behind in the tech race and cities-founding race, but do you think that it's not worth to sacrifice 10-15 turns to find a better place? And finally, if you play really well, don't you think that it IS possible to get out of the hole? Of course when I do that, and lose 10-15 or even 20 turns to found a city (on Noble level), I am the last one in the score and it lasts for many and many turns. But, slowly, with a lot of work and dedication, things go fixed. I am still not able to be on top of the scores maybe because I still need to improve my playing skill, but yes, I can get into a good place.

Try to make friends with at least one nearby civ, and as many others as you can. Often I found that a more powerful ally would declare war on my enemy "as a favor for a friend." It sure helps.

Hmmmmm are you really sure about that? 'Cause in Noble level I've maked one or two friendly civs and they didn't help me in war time.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by stevesk
Could you explain me why? I know you begin to be much time behind in the tech race and cities-founding race, but do you think that it's not worth to sacrifice 10-15 turns to find a better place?

Not really. You can do a few things in those 10 - 15 turns. If nothing else, grow your city.

Originally posted by stevesk
And finally, if you play really well, don't you think that it IS possible to get out of the hole? Of course when I do that, and lose 10-15 or even 20 turns to found a city (on Noble level), I am the last one in the score and it lasts for many and many turns.

Sure, it is possible. Quite probable even, on Noble. The thing is if you need to spend 10 - 15 turns to find a good site, you are usually better off to settle down quickly and build your second city on the good site. A good city plus a marginal city is better than just a good city.

[stevesk]

Sure, it is possible. Quite probable even, on Noble. The thing is if you need to spend 10 - 15 turns to find a good site, you are usually better off to settle down quickly and build your second city on the good site. A good city plus a marginal city is better than just a good city.

I see your point, I really see it. But sometimes you born in a really BAD place, which means no good place not even in the area just around your city. How do you expect to find a good place for a second city if you are born in the middle of the ice, for ex., in the very top or very bottom of the map? You could walk north, south, east, west, you wouldn't see nothing but ice and tundra. And what is worst it is happening with me in a 2 continents-temperate-huge-medium sea-18 civs map in a such high frequence that it is hard for me to believe.

Edit: Another example of a place where you cannot find a good place even in the area around is in the middle of the jungle. It happens quite often with me too.

[HaplessHorde]

Originally posted by stevesk
Hmmmmm are you really sure about that? 'Cause in Noble level I've maked one or two friendly civs and they didn't help me in war time.

Oh, I got the quote but not the quote quote. It's not guaranteed, and you may have to give up a lot to make them good and pleased. It depends on their situation, too. If they've got lots of resources and are feeling bent about the guy that's attacking you, they may join in. If they have good relations with him, you're out of luck, unless you can figure some way to turn the tables.

That all said, I'm still in a major hole in my current game, but I'm going to stick it out to see what happens. My advice: if somebody starts a war against you, let them be the ones to sue for peace. And always ask your friends for anything they'll give you for free.

[stevesk]

Oh, I got the quote but not the quote quote. It's not guaranteed, and you may have to give up a lot to make them good and pleased. It depends on their situation, too. If they've got lots of resources and are feeling bent about the guy that's attacking you, they may join in. If they have good relations with him, you're out of luck, unless you can figure some way to turn the table

The fact is this: I have a civ on noble level who is more than pleased, who is friendly towards me. If I ask for them to help me in war time, they NEVER did it for free. Always needing something specially tech. If I haven't any tech they don't have, they just ignore and let me in my own luck. They never accepted a war against a civ "in the name of our friendship". I didn't play many games until now, but at least in all of them it was like that.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by stevesk
I see your point, I really see it. But sometimes you born in a really BAD place, which means no good place not even in the area just around your city. How do you expect to find a good place for a second city if you are born in the middle of the ice, for ex., in the very top or very bottom of the map? You could walk north, south, east, west, you wouldn't see nothing but ice and tundra. And what is worst it is happening with me in a 2 continents-temperate-huge-medium sea-18 civs map in a such high frequence that it is hard for me to believe.

Edit: Another example of a place where you cannot find a good place even in the area around is in the middle of the jungle. It happens quite often with me too.

Sometimes you get unlucky...

If you cannot find a good site anywhere your starting location, it stands to reason that you should found your city the first turn. That's because the further away a good city site is the longer it will take you to find it, meanwhile your empire isn't growing or doing anything. And if a barbarian or enemy unit stumbles upon your settler that's the end of it.

[stevesk]

(...) and if a barbarian or enemy unit stumbles upon your settler that's the end of it.

Well, I prefer to die trying... :P

[HaplessHorde]

your friendly neighborhood war-buddy

Originally posted by stevesk


The fact is this: I have a civ on noble level who is more than pleased, who is friendly towards me. If I ask for them to help me in war time, they NEVER did it for free. Always needing something specially tech. If I haven't any tech they don't have, they just ignore and let me in my own luck. They never accepted a war against a civ "in the name of our friendship". I didn't play many games until now, but at least in all of them it was like that.

Who knows what calculations go into the decision to help or not. I got two friendly civs to join in on my side against the two civs that were attacking me, but only on one occassion. I have tried getting them in again, but they wouldn't.

[stevesk]

Re: your friendly neighborhood war-buddy

Originally posted by HaplessHorde


Who knows what calculations go into the decision to help or not. I got two friendly civs to join in on my side against the two civs that were attacking me, but only on one occassion. I have tried getting them in again, but they wouldn't.

And the main problem is that even if I give techs and they decide to join me, just in the way it was on Civ2 (I don't know about Civ3), they make peace a few turns later.

[Yosho]

If you're playing on Marathon speed, and you can improve your starting location by spending a few turns moving your settler, it's probably worth it; 5 early game turns on that speed does not mean very much. On the other hand, usually there's noting better then your starting location nearby, and if there is you usually won't know it, unless you're reloading or something. (shrug)