How to win this city?

[Swiss Pauli]

I can see that Cyrus has your Hinduism, so you should have been able to use religious spying (and probably OB spying) to see what he had in there before declaring war.

As courdelion's calculation shows, that Longbowman would be a devil to defeat, so better choose another target, or leave the war for later.

[unamablebuiler]

knights would be useful if you can buildthem they are immune to first strikes have a str of 10 pity they cant us the city raider promo. its been said before but bring more catpults and some longbows of your own what are the macemen promoted as? You can nearly wipe the longbow advantage with city raider maces just bring plenty of them Cover is also good for archers of any sort

[Urban Ranger]

why don't you attack another city instead? Leave a screening force to kill anything that can come out from this city, then go somewhere else first. In The Art of War Sun Tzu wrote, "Don't fight a battle that you don't have to."

[smacfan]

Originally posted by bobshiznit
Like chuck said above, the longbows get a huge defense bonus for being fortified in a city. A jag doesn't stand a chance nor a horse archer. The macemen won't win unless the longbow is sufficienty damaged by catapults. Each longbow is at least strength 12 if it has been fortified. A macemen with city raider is 9.6, or with cover 10 vs longbows. So it will take at least a cat and a macemen to kill a longbow in the city. If you are unlucky you may need more.
Shiznit

Yeah, I'm gonna need more, I sure am.

Thanks again.

smacfan

[smacfan]

Originally posted by Ijuin
I would reccommend that you specialize your forces in a three-way split.

Catapults and Axemen/etc. should be optimized for attack--give City Raider or Combat ability to the melee units and Bombard or Combat to the Catapults.

Archers/Longbowmen/etc. should be optimized for defense--give them the Combat or City Garrison ability.

Mobile (i.e. mounted/chariot) units should be optimized for fast strikes--give them Flanking and then Mobility--this is so that you will get a quick-response force that can for example take out enemy Catapults that are moving into position to bombard you.

Thanks for the advice. I'll try to follow it from now on.

smacfan

[smacfan]

Originally posted by make

I agree with bobshiznit.

Vel have a formula, in his pinned thread, for how much strenght you should bring to be sure to get the city. Its a good formula.
Its under "The Mark of a Good Warrior" here
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=144755

Thanks, I did see that one.

Personally, I am to lazy to do the math everytime, so I use my own rule of thumb.

Hey, nice to know I'm not the only one...

It is...
Bring twice as many units (not catapults) +1, of youre best type. Also mix youre unit types. The one spearman and warelephant you brougt is a good safety against mounted units.

Bring atleast 3 siegeweapons.

So I would recommend this stack.

1 warelephant (horsestopper)
1 spearman (horsestopper. cheaper than elephants)
1 longbowman if you can build them, otherwise, just an archer, who can be upgraded to a longbow. (Garrison)
8 macemen (Cityraiders).
3 catapults.

After you have bombarded the city all you can with the cats, I would use them to cause collateral damage. Use all 3 cats first if needed. You want the odds of winning to be above 75%, when you start to use the macemen. They are very expensive, so dont use them unless youre chance of winning is very good.

Thanks for the specifics. They help clarify things for me a lot.

Like I said earlier, boy-oh-boy did I not prepare for this war.

smacfan

[smacfan]

Originally posted by couerdelion
If I read this right, that first longbow is should have the following defenses

Promotion bonuses +45%
City defense +25%
Hill defense +25%
Fortify +25%

So he’s defending with 13.2 with first strike.

In general, I find Maceman v Longbow are about the same as Axemen v Archer and for safety I take around 2 for each defender if the city has no additional defenses (hill, promotions, culture). Once they have those bonuses then you probably need 3 v 1 or several catapults to wear down the defenders.

I’d probably attack this city with Grenadiers.

Unfortunately I'm not not up to Grenadiers, I haven't even got Knights yet.

As I said earlier, I think I started this war a bit too soon...

Thanks for the help.

smacfan

[smacfan]

Originally posted by johnmcd
The AI loves to have men on strategic resources so they can't be pillaged. If there is iron, copper or horses nearby chances are that it's got a guard who is more easily killed. If you have the time, you could kill that guard, and any other guards you see around. It may be that he choses to replace that man with a man from the citadel at which point your job will have got easier.

More of a sidestep around the issue than actually tackling it. Personally, I'd just accumulate a few more catapults.

I'm afraid I am too close to the tail end of the game to be able to wait that long. I need to wipe Cyrus up pretty rapidly, because I still have Alexander and Ghengis to get to on my continent.

And then there is Louis off on his own island somewhere and one other AI I haven't met yet.

Oh well, Vel's scenarios are designed to teach, so I guess I'm learning...

Thanks for your help.

smacfan

[smacfan]

Originally posted by fed1943
Looking at the forces as they are:
If the 25%bonus comes from culture/walls and not in a hurry:1)the cats destroy the bonus;2)attack with the cats for collateral damage;3)attack with the horses to take out the spear;4)atack with the elephant;5)conquer with the infantry.
I think you should win the battle,but with heavy casualties.Was it necessary?

Well, in meta-game terms, yes it is necessary. It's after 1000AD in this game, and although I seem to be in 1st place, I have only eliminated one AI (Tokugawa), and there are 3 more still on my continent, plus two more somewhere else.

Did I say I was going for a conquer victory? No, I see I didn't. Well, I am trying to win with war, using Vel's "Devel II - Jaguar Rush" scenario.

Obviously, I have a lot to learn...

Thanks for the advice.

smacfan

[smacfan]

Re: Re: How to win this city?

Originally posted by Nacht
quote:
Originally posted by smacfan
I even bombarded the city defenses to zero first on one replay...

Even? That should be standard procedure, except for the very early stages of the game or a cultureless backwater city.

This is a learning experience for me, learning to conduct war. I'm normally a builder, not a warrior, but I decided I needed to stretch my skills with this one.

As I've said, I have a lot to learn...

Thanks for the advice.

smacfan

[smacfan]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli
I can see that Cyrus has your Hinduism, so you should have been able to use religious spying (and probably OB spying) to see what he had in there before declaring war.

As courdelion's calculation shows, that Longbowman would be a devil to defeat, so better choose another target, or leave the war for later.

Yes, I saw what was defending there (though Cyrus seems to have upgraded an Archer to a Longbowman after I declared war). I just didn't realize how tough a nut those Longbowmen would be to crack.

Time to go back and replay, focussing earlier on what I will need for the war so I'm better prepared the next time.

As I said earlier, it's after 1000AD at this point in the game, and I'm trying for a conquer victory, so leaving the war for later isn't an option.

Play and learn, play and learn...

Thanks for the advice.

smacfan

[smacfan]

Originally posted by unamablebuiler
knights would be useful if you can buildthem they are immune to first strikes have a str of 10 pity they cant us the city raider promo. its been said before but bring more catpults and some longbows of your own what are the macemen promoted as? You can nearly wipe the longbow advantage with city raider maces just bring plenty of them Cover is also good for archers of any sort

No Knights yet, I'm afraid. Soon, but not until later in this war. At least, not in this replay.

The macemen are newly minted, City Raider I promoted. As others have said, I'm gonna need more of 'em. And more Cats, too, double at least. And a lot more units in the pipeline to replace them as I take each city. At least two more cities are going to be as tough as this one, or nearly so, before I get down to the small fry.

You are the second one to suggest I bring my own Longbows. That's a good thought, thanks.

smacfan

[smacfan]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
why don't you attack another city instead? Leave a screening force to kill anything that can come out from this city, then go somewhere else first. In The Art of War Sun Tzu wrote, "Don't fight a battle that you don't have to."

Interesting idea, that. Allows focus on the easier cities, leaving a screening force here, as you said. Problem is, this is a strong city (size 9) with resources, I really can't afford to leave such danger in close proximity to my territory. It could probably generate a fair-sized fighting force if I have to leave it alone for too long. It's a definite counter-attack danger.

Though I suppose if the screening force occupies all or at least the most important of the citiy's resource tiles, he won't be able to work those, will he?

An interesting idea. Thanks.

WRT Sun Tzu's advice, this is a war training scenario for me, so war is the focus of my (feeble so far) efforts. He's correct, of course, but not for this scenario.

Thanks for the advice and the interesting idea.

smacfan

[unamablebuiler]

if you can't take the city then you pillage the ground round it cut off his trae network and he wont be able to increase his pop and he won't be building special units. Too bad it can't happen here as it looks like his trade network will always be connected. what happens if you have units on both sides of a river ? Can the river be blockaded?

It might be excssive but i aim for 3-4 units per defender. then i add annother half 2 units per catapult catapults 3-4 longbows best infantry attack and best cavarly attack. Cavarly are probably the best counter to archers/longbows and are usually screening/pillage forces

i put my longbows on hills and fortify it is effective against most units of that era esp if you do it next to a city. a couple of maces will help againts melee units such as knights spears/pikes are useful too i would just go maces cause the are more use against all melee

Another question whats the diplomacy like? you might be able to bring someone else in to the war and tilt it more in your favour. This might come back to bite you though. Cyrus lookslike his necks on the chopping block.

Civics might make it easier to wage war, Vassalage and theocracy are the ones that come to mind and if you have pyramids police state and Univ suffrage(if you have lots of towns) are both useful.

i am still learning warfare in particular preindustrial warfare. hope it helps

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by smacfan
Though I suppose if the screening force occupies all or at least the most important of the citiy's resource tiles, he won't be able to work those, will he?

There are a number of things you can do. Pillage his resource squares and break his road connections. Put a stack floating about so anything the computer player can send out from the city gets smashed.

Originally posted by smacfan
WRT Sun Tzu's advice, this is a war training scenario for me, so war is the focus of my (feeble so far) efforts. He's correct, of course, but not for this scenario.

I see. Deciding where to attack and when to attack is a large part of any war.

Originally posted by smacfan
Thanks for the advice and the interesting idea.