How to win this city?

[smacfan]

Or, boy-oh-boy did I not prepare well enough for this war.

I'm Aztec in this game (Devel II continuation), at war with Cyrus the Persian. I *thought* I brought enough firepower to take this city, but I got slaughtered. I even bombarded the city defenses to zero first on one replay, and I still got wiped out (all but the Spearman and one badly damaged catapult).

I'd appreciate any advice, brickbats, etc. telling me what I did wrong and what I *should* have done instead. And what I should have brought with me to take this city instead of what I did bring.

smacfan


Two screenshots here:

1. City Defenses:



2. Attacking Forces:

[smacfan]

In case the images aren't clear, the city defenses are:

3 Longbowmen
1 Axeman
1 Spearman
25% Defense Bonus

The Attacking Forces are:

1 War Elephant
1 Maceman
2 Horse Archers
3 Catapults
2 Jaguars
1 Spearman

TIA for your help and advice.

smacfan

[bobshiznit]

If I knew what I was facing heading toward this city I would have brought:

6 catapults, bombard down then weaken the longbows with the rest.

Something to attack with:
6-8 macemen would be very safe.

Something to defend the stack with:
War Elephant or spearmen, and a Longbow or two to defend with after the city is taken.

Overall I would probably feel safe with
6 catapults
6 macemen
a war elephant
a longbow
to take and defend the city in one turn.

This is a pretty big and expensive stack and that's what the challenge is in taking cities.
The biggest challenge is taking down the lownbows in the city. One way to reduce the cost would be to only use 3 cats and bombard the first turn and attack the next. Use the cheap catapults to weaken the longbows, either first strike promotions or city raider promotions will do well.

I don't know if this is useful because the stack I suggest is pretty big. You could substitute a macemen for 2 jags if you have extras laying around, but that axemen needs to be taken care of before they become useful. So you'll still need 4-5 macemen.

Shiznit

[chuckdelicious]

First off, I'd have brought more macemen. You could have probably dropped your research for a turn or two and upgraded the jags, but that probably wouldn't do enough. That city is on a hill, so the longbowmen are going to have a +75 bonus +1 first strike +city garrison promotions, provided they've been fortified long enough. I see one longbowman with city garrison 2, so that's +45. So he's going to be strength 6 +120% = 13.2 + 1 first strike. In other words, it's not going to be easy. You're gonna need a bigger stack of cats and maces and expect to take heavy casualties. You might want to opt for the pillage the countryside method until you declare peace and then try it again when you have built up your forces some more.

[Willem]

Originally posted by chuckdelicious
That city is on a hill, so the longbowmen are going to have a +75 bonus +1 first strike +city garrison promotions, provided they've been fortified long enough.

It doesn't look like a Hill to me. I'd say that was Floodplain.

[smacfan]

Originally posted by Willem
It doesn't look like a Hill to me. I'd say that was Floodplain.

No, it really is a hill. Hill/desert to be precise, hence the 25% defense bonus.

Sorry for the unclear screenshot, I run at 1600x1200 so the small details can be unclear when reducing to a screenshot. Next time I'll try resetting to a lesser screen resolution before taking the screenshot.

smacfan

[smacfan]

Originally posted by bobshiznit
If I knew what I was facing heading toward this city I would have brought:

6 catapults, bombard down then weaken the longbows with the rest.

Something to attack with:
6-8 macemen would be very safe.

Something to defend the stack with:
War Elephant or spearmen, and a Longbow or two to defend with after the city is taken.

Overall I would probably feel safe with
6 catapults
6 macemen
a war elephant
a longbow
to take and defend the city in one turn.
Shiznit

Hm-m-m. OK, I thought I could get away with using my Jaguars and HA's, but I guess I need to go back and replay to focus on Macemen and Cats. Jag's are expensive to upgrade (314gpt in this game), so it might be cheaper to make them from scratch.

Thanks for the succinct advice.

smacfan

[smacfan]

Originally posted by chuckdelicious
First off, I'd have brought more macemen. You could have probably dropped your research for a turn or two and upgraded the jags, but that probably wouldn't do enough. That city is on a hill, so the longbowmen are going to have a +75 bonus +1 first strike +city garrison promotions, provided they've been fortified long enough. I see one longbowman with city garrison 2, so that's +45. So he's going to be strength 6 +120% = 13.2 + 1 first strike. In other words, it's not going to be easy. You're gonna need a bigger stack of cats and maces and expect to take heavy casualties. You might want to opt for the pillage the countryside method until you declare peace and then try it again when you have built up your forces some more.

Yes, I do think I should have brought more Macemen, as bobshiznit also suggested. And more Cats. And I guess I need a Cat factory city near the front to replenish them as they get used up. I will also need to prioritize Engineering for the +1 Road movement so they can get to the front quicker.

I don't much want to pillage the countryside so I can take advantage of the improvements myself after the conquering is done. But it is an option.

Thanks for the advice.

smacfan

[bobshiznit]

Like chuck said above, the longbows get a huge defense bonus for being fortified in a city. A jag doesn't stand a chance nor a horse archer. The macemen won't win unless the longbow is sufficienty damaged by catapults. Each longbow is at least strength 12 if it has been fortified. A macemen with city raider is 9.6, or with cover 10 vs longbows. So it will take at least a cat and a macemen to kill a longbow in the city. If you are unlucky you may need more.
Shiznit

[Ijuin]

I would reccommend that you specialize your forces in a three-way split.

Catapults and Axemen/etc. should be optimized for attack--give City Raider or Combat ability to the melee units and Bombard or Combat to the Catapults.

Archers/Longbowmen/etc. should be optimized for defense--give them the Combat or City Garrison ability.

Mobile (i.e. mounted/chariot) units should be optimized for fast strikes--give them Flanking and then Mobility--this is so that you will get a quick-response force that can for example take out enemy Catapults that are moving into position to bombard you.

[make]

Originally posted by smacfan
In case the images aren't clear, the city defenses are:

3 Longbowmen
1 Axeman
1 Spearman
25% Defense Bonus

The Attacking Forces are:

1 War Elephant
1 Maceman
2 Horse Archers
3 Catapults
2 Jaguars
1 Spearman

TIA for your help and advice.

smacfan

I agree with bobshiznit.

Vel have a formula, in his pinned thread, for how much strenght you should bring to be sure to get the city. Its a good formula.
Its under "The Mark of a Good Warrior" here

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144755

Personally, I am to lazy to do the math everytime, so I use my own rule of thumb.

It is...
Bring twice as many units (not catapults) +1, of youre best type. Also mix youre unit types. The one spearman and warelephant you brougt is a good safety against mounted units.

Bring atleast 3 siegeweapons.

So I would recommend this stack.

1 warelephant (horsestopper)
1 spearman (horsestopper. cheaper than elephants)
1 longbowman if you can build them, otherwise, just an archer, who can be upgraded to a longbow. (Garrison)
8 macemen (Cityraiders).
3 catapults.

After you have bombarded the city all you can with the cats, I would use them to cause collateral damage. Use all 3 cats first if needed. You want the odds of winning to be above 75%, when you start to use the macemen. They are very expensive, so dont use them unless youre chance of winning is very good.

[couerdelion]

If I read this right, that first longbow is should have the following defenses

Promotion bonuses +45%
City defense +25%
Hill defense +25%
Fortify +25%

So he’s defending with 13.2 with first strike.

In general, I find Maceman v Longbow are about the same as Axemen v Archer and for safety I take around 2 for each defender if the city has no additional defenses (hill, promotions, culture). Once they have those bonuses then you probably need 3 v 1 or several catapults to wear down the defenders.

I’d probably attack this city with Grenadiers.

[johnmcd]

The AI loves to have men on strategic resources so they can't be pillaged. If there is iron, copper or horses nearby chances are that it's got a guard who is more easily killed. If you have the time, you could kill that guard, and any other guards you see around. It may be that he choses to replace that man with a man from the citadel at which point your job will have got easier.

More of a sidestep around the issue than actually tackling it. Personally, I'd just accumulate a few more catapults.

[fed1943]

Looking at the forces as they are:
If the 25%bonus comes from culture/walls and not in a hurry:1)the cats destroy the bonus;2)attack with the cats for collateral damage;3)attack with the horses to take out the spear;4)atack with the elephant;5)conquer with the infantry.
I think you should win the battle,but with heavy casualties.Was it necessary?

[Nacht]

Re: How to win this city?

Originally posted by smacfan
I even bombarded the city defenses to zero first on one replay...

Even? That should be standard procedure, except for the very early stages of the game or a cultureless backwater city.