Jump from Noble to Prince

[walkern]

I finished my best game on Noble yet (Frederick, Terra, Normal size) with a domination victory, crushing the opposition the whole way in culture, size, score, tech and units. Victory in ~1915 with a massive Panzer army, all but five techs or so discovered, finished with Augustus Caesar rating.

I figured it was time to move up to Prince, and wow. I'm not getting really rocked or anything, I just feel so behind, mostly in production. Executed the CS slingshot with no problems (I tend to be pretty flexible and do whatever's best, but in this case going for the slingshot was really the best option I think), but unfortunately the only copper resource I could grab is in the middle of a few desert and other worthless tiles so that city isn't producing/growing much. I thought I was able to get axemen out pretty quick compared to most games, when all of a sudden Tokugawa founds a city only a few tiles away from my capital guarded by two axemen, and a couple turns later two archers as well. I've got a couple axes around but not enough to take a city or anything.

Of course, this might be qualified as a slightly "tough start" because of the copper and general lack of other good resources around me, and I am playing as Washington but the game is early enough that money hasn't really come into play yet.

It feels like the AI could run over me any time they wanted to (this is Washington/Large/Continents btw). Does anyone have any tips for moving from Noble to a higher difficulty level? Any major strategy changes? I especially feel that I didn't found enough cities early on. I usually do something like Warrior/Worker (with BW to chop)/Settler to start the first city, and since my second city wasn't producing jack I moved the worker there to grab the bronze and worked on a warrior or two in my capital. The AI advantage is really noticeable!

Thanks,
NW

[MasterDave]

When in doubt, poach a worker!

One tactic I like to use on Prince difficulty (and Monarch too, although it is far riskier on Monarch) is to steal a worker from a neighbor upon first meeting them. The extra worker really gives your civ a boost, and the loss of their early worker often has the result of crippling a prince level AI.

Fortunately on Prince level it is usually possible to make peace with your victim before they have the ability to mount a counterattack, especially if you can "persuade" them further by using the warrior that stole their worker to pillage their early construction. If you take their worker early enough in the game, that AI should be behind you in development for a long time, and should be a good candidate for future expansion on your part.

"Poaching" workers works on Monarch too, although it is riskier, because the AI starts with more units, can recover faster, and it is more difficult to get them to stop the war after you start one.

[Son of David]

There ought to be a 'gentleman's agreement' which prevents such early game shenanigans - after all I remember fondly in Civ3 when Monarch-level Bismarck would send an archer into your empty capital city in 3600BC and put a premature end to your game.

[Hermann the Lombard]

SoD: I remember in Vel's Strat Thread II when you were making the transition from Prince to Monarch and feeling much like walkern does now...except that at Monarch they really ARE apt to run over you!

[Urban Ranger]

If you get a bad start the difficulty could be a notch or two above your chosen level. If you have a bad start after you move up a level is it not shameful to start over again.

[Cadarn]

Don't go all-out for the CS slingshot......on Prince, I've found that settling for CoL as my Oracle freebie is nicely balanced by the flexibility in early research it allows. Also, you don't have to go all-out for commerce in your early cities.

I've found that a start of warriors (playing as Lizzie) until I hit size 3 followed by worker/worker/settler/settler works well, as you can chop rush the 2nd worker AND both settlers in short order. Then, you can put some cottages down or send a worker off to chop rush a worker right off the bat in your 2nd and 3rd cities.

All those workers will really help you chop rush the Oracle and any granaries you need, which in turn fattens your cities up quickly enabling them to turn to unit production in a timely fashion.

Good luck!

[Solver]

I found, for me, that the difference between Noble and Prince is in city specialization. On Prince, the AI has slight production & research advantages over you, but nothing major. You can stillbe ahead in the tech race and the military. Monarch's another story, the AI gets a free Worker there, which really boosts it.

So, consider specializing cities. I, for instance, may use my capital as the best troop factory - Heroic Epic, West Point later in the game, Engineer specialists, enough production. Even on Epic, such a city eventually becomes able to build military units in no more than 3 turns.

Surround another city with a ton of Cottages, especially good if the city also has something like Gems or Gold in radius, build an Academy there when you can and just let the commerce flow.

In fact, you may want to sometime try out a high-commerce strat, that is, build a ton of cottages, and early, so they grow to towns sooner. You'll have less population because of less farms, but you should still have enough, plus it's not a bad idea to make a couple of cities food-heavy. With a ton of cottages, you shouldn't have problems getting to Liberalism first, and going Free Speech is then excellent for you, +2 commerce from each Town will matter a lot, and the culture bonus gives you a shot at the culture victory. I have seen AIs pursue a very cottage-intensive strategy, which led to them being 5-6 techs ahead of the next AI.

[PaganPaulwhisky]

Prince actually doesn't feel that much different than noble to me although I have only played a few games on noble difficulty. If you are able to crush noble, than those same strategies should work pretty well on Prince also.

I wouldn't worry about founding so many early cities. In most of my games I only actually settle about 3 or 4 cities early and then I just take the rest by force. If you don't have copper though it makes things more difficult. In this case I would make sure to secure an early source of horses or beeline to iron working.

It's important not to get discouraged early as the AI will sometimes get off to great starts and be way ahead in tech. I am almost always behind in tech for a good portion of the early game. In my last Prince game I was dead last in tech for a long time, but made up for it by completely wiping out the tech leader and having double the number of cities of any other civ. Once this happens the game is basically over as you can easily catch up and surpass everyone in tech while churning out more units than anyone else. I think it is

The jump from Prince to Monarch is much much tougher. Learn to feel comfortable being behind early and then set specific long term goals to improve your position.

[Son of David]

I agree. 'Monarch' difficulty level is very unforgiving. It's at 'Monarch' level that you cease playing Civ4 leisurely and really have to concentrate on what you're doing.

Prince level in my opinion is the best - AIs not too much of a walkover, easy to win with a bit of practice, does not require intense micromanagement.

[bobshiznit]

Well I'm starting to win most of my games on Monarch now and have moved to Emperor. Some things that I've noticed as you move up the difficulties are (i.e. from Nobe to Prince):

1) Expansion - The AI will expand toward you ever so rapidly. A counter to this is to look at you terrain. Look for mountains and chokepoints and put cities to block off chunks of land. Don't sign open borders and you will be able to keep more land.

2) Military - Make sure you keep these border cities well protected. Rather than focusing on wonders and Oracle tricks build a defensive army behind some walls (seriously). A bunch of axes and spears can kill early AI stacks. To be agressive on higher difficulties you need a huge army use F9 to see how you are doing. Don't get into battle you can't win. and use the terrain to your advantage. Get in a good defensive position (forest hills are awesome), declare war and watch the AI helplessly send units into your fotified stack. Once their attacks slow down or stop it is time to take some cities.

Don't expand where you can't defend. Scout the area around, find good border city sites, expand quickly (graneries and bronzeworking are key) to the borders, and build an excessive defensive army on the borders. Culture on your borders is also a nice defense as it will give you an extra few turns to prepare for a surprise invasion.

3) Improving terrain - building or stealing workers is key early on. You need food because you need people. Population wins games. Farm the crap out of the land to get people, then get shields for a military, then and only then focus on getting money. It doesn't matter if you are 10 techs ahead if you are getting bashed over the head by your rival.

4) Keys to Victory - growth, military, economy, science; in that order. Avoid early wonders until you are sure you are safe. If you find you are next to India and England you can build wonders or an army to smash them. Stealing a wonder is better than building it (exept for the oracle). If you are next to Mongolia and Greece you need a large military to defend. If you find yourself in a bad situation you may even have to give into unreasonable demands (the penalty for building the oracle instead of axemen).

I hope there is something useful in this. I'm still learning alot. A good learning tool is to play farther through bad starts than normal and you will sood find out why you are losing. Good terrain means build, bad terrain means bash heads for good terrain.

Shiznit

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by bobshiznit
Good terrain means build, bad terrain means bash heads for good terrain.

Well if your starting position is terrible you can't even build a large army to bash heads.

[bobshiznit]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Well if your starting position is terrible you can't even build a large army to bash heads.

If your only focus is military you should be able to find someone that you can kill. If you only build units you can pull it out. The game has a strange way of putting iron, copper, or horses near bad starts so you can have an advantage bashing heads.

In a recent game on emperor, I was bismark starting in a terrible position except for the fact I found horses in my borders. There was jungle everywhere there was a resource. Even with Mansu next door I managed to build chariot after chariot. I would declare war kill two skirmishers with up to 9 chariots, and declare peace. The gold I got from getting a city and pillaging (this is key to cripple you opponent) enabled my to keep science up. After a series of about 6 short decisive wars I finally destroyed him and got some really good terrain and a buttload of workers to clear jungle. That put me in a great position. A note here is to only keep the cities in really good sites as maintenance costs require a lot of cottages and courthouses to withold.

Shiznit